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A Suggestion to Secret (Drama) Dungeons

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  • A Suggestion to Secret (Drama) Dungeons

    Secret Dungeon Announced:
    Add. add plz. i need this hero. I ADDED U PLZ ACCEPT. what does he have? sent. add me pls. LET ME BE UR FREIND. i need gold. is he online? i sent plz accept. ADD. who has it? ILL LOVE U FOREVER.
    On Completion:
    gl everyone. why did u add that guy, i added u first. i never get accepted to sds. gz! i never get anything. see that guy always gets everything. FU. why u add me when its dead? FK I ONLY GOT 1 HIT. at least u got added. I WASTED MY X2 WAITING FOR NOTHING.


    Secret Dungeons - you either love them, or you hate them. Such is the case when your gains are equally someone else's losses, and your losses are equally someone else's gains. Don't get me wrong, Secret Dungeons right now are much better than they used to be, but they are by no means great either. The current iteration of Secret Dungeons comes with its own set of problems that need to be addressed, so that we can find a better way to go about this.

    How Secret Dungeons Work
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    When a Secret Dungeon is opened, it will have a random hero (dependent on the day) with a set amount of life and a timer. The hero can be anything from a 3* to a Mythic hero, if you're lucky. Any friend of the player that opened it can participate by dealing damage to it so it nears completion. You can invest currency to attack multiple times with your team, and you will gain bonus rewards via inbox when it completes.

    When a Secret Dungeon reaches 100% before the time limit, it succeeds, and all players are rewarded based on their contribution relative to others. The hero of that dungeon will also be given to a random participant, but having better contribution increases your chance of receiving it. If the Secret Dungeon's time limit expires before completion, it fails, and all players are given a small compensation reward (any extra currency invested will also be refunded).

    Secret Dungeons that have been cleared or expired disappear from the list, and the opener's cooldown to find another one begins.

    The Good
    - Gold output is better than original Secret Dungeons.
    - Players have opportunities to get heroes they want, if they appear and get added.
    - Scroll Pieces help users complete Summon Collectors and summoning blessed heroes.
    - Secret Dungeons, if done right, can be a community effort.

    Allow me to be clear: if you can participate in Secret Dungeons, they are extremely rewarding. The gold you gain from Secret Dungeons is much better than before, especially if you attack Mimics, Legendary, and/or Mythic dungeons. While gold is still a chronic issue for the majority of players, having a way to get a good chunk of gold is still very much welcomed.

    Secret Dungeons allow players opportunities to get heroes they would've otherwise not had a chance to get. This is especially true for heroes in the Light and Dark category, as they are incredibly elusive. Even if you don't get the hero reward, you are rewarded with scroll pieces which can be very helpful in summoning blessed and/or higher quality heroes. When it's a hero you don't want, pieces are the preferred reward.

    The Bad
    - Players can do so much damage that certain dungeons evaporate very quickly.
    - Few players can actually participate in Secret Dungeons when the above occurs.
    - Secret Dungeons encourage players to beg for adds so they can take the lion's share.
    - The dungeon opener sometimes has no chance to participate.
    - Players don't want to be added to Secret Dungeons that are nearly complete.
    - Success depends on the dungeon opener adding others or not being/going AFK.
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    (Yes, this Mimic dungeon was cleared in less than a single minute because 3 players did at least 30% each.)

    Because of how Secret Dungeons work, the number of people that can participate and attack is entirely based on how much damage they are doing relative to the dungeon's life. If you can do more damage, you get more rewards. Simple, right? The problem is that the highly-desirable Secret Dungeons (mimics, 6*s, Legendary, and Mythic) are cleared so quickly because of just a few people doing the majority of the damage. Veteran players have no problem getting their hero power well over 60,000 and taking a huge chunk of the Dungeon's contribution for themselves. At times, even the player that opened it doesn't get a chance to attack it, and that's just sad.

    With the rewards being so good, it is not uncommon to see players stake out and wait for good Secret Dungeons to be opened. When they do appear, everyone jumps in on them hoping to be the first people to be added, or to at least get an attack in before it disappears. Players are encouraged to beg if they know they have a chance of being added before others; sometimes, it can persist for hours if the dungeon opener is unresponsive and the dungeon is rare enough. But once people find out that the Secret Dungeon they want to participate in is nearly dead, they are quick to withdraw their requests if they have yet to be accepted. Why put good heroes on cooldown for just one attack (or worse, not even get a chance to attack at all) and maybe waste a friend delete, when you can be patient and jump on a newer dungeon so you get your cooldown's worth?
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    On the other side of the spectrum, several Secret Dungeons completely fail because the dungeon opener did not add other players for help. Other times they do, but they don't add enough and log off, never to return to see its progress. This is often the case for players who are new to the game or have yet to fill their friend list with some active people.

    The Ugly
    - Drama. So much salt and drama.
    - Players feel entitled to be added just because they asked first, haven't participated in dungeons recently, have a higher arena rank, been the most patient, or begged the most... when they weren't the dungeon opener.
    - Players feel entitled to receive the hero just because they are #1 in contribution... even if they weren't the dungeon opener.
    - Some dungeon openers feel entitled to deny others from participating in the dungeons they open... just because they weren't added to other dungeons.
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    (If you win a Legendary or Mythic hero from a dungeon, reactions more or less look like this. Some 'gz', and the rest are 'fu'.)
    (If you are a selfish player, you are the server's worst enemy.)

    The most annoying part of all is the drama and hurt feelings in chat. The more rare the dungeon is, the more likely you are to see this happen. It doesn't just come from the people begging to be added - it comes from the people opening the dungeons too.

    Several players demand to be added for whatever reason is most convenient for their situation, and they get horribly upset when their request is declined or ignored. The other players that do get added believe that they rightfully deserve only the best reward for doing the most, and they get horribly upset when someone else gets it (levels of rage scale up relative to how low in contribution the winner was). And remember about the players that demand to be added but don't get their way? Some of them even hold grudges against the rest for completing the dungeon without them and declare that when they finally do open a good Secret Dungeon, they won't add anyone for help. If I can't get it, nobody can!

    A lot of these issues stem from the fact that Secret Dungeons reward selfish players and behavior. The more you get out of a Secret Dungeon through contribution, the less others can get. It's a zero sum game.

    When you are a selfish player, you want to be added first so you can get all of your attacks in before everyone else, because if you are added late, that's less you're potentially able to get. Secret Dungeon almost finished? Time to back out and beg for a different one.

    When you are a selfish player, you want to bring the strongest team you can so you can get the most out of your attacks while letting everyone else fight for the remaining scraps. This is especially the case when participating in Secret Dungeons you really want the hero reward from. The less others do relative to you, the better.

    When you are a selfish player, you don't want to see multiple participants doing a lot of damage - that often means you won't be able to get all of your attacks in before its cleared. If you see strong players getting added, it's a race to see how many more attacks you can get in before they can. You want your competitors to have slower devices than you.

    When you are a selfish player, you completely disregard others because all that matters is how much you're getting out of the dungeon. Oh, the dungeon opener didn't attack yet? Sucks for them!

    When you are a selfish player, you don't want to have many strong friends on your list in case you open a good Secret Dungeon. You want to make sure you get all of your attacks in before it gets cleared. Having more than a handful of strong friends means your Secret Dungeon gets cleared in a matter of seconds, so if you're not there, you miss out entirely. You don't want to be that guy who didn't get a chance to attack their dungeon, right?

    Your gains are built upon their losses, after all. This is how you succeed and reap the most out of Secret Dungeons. It's not really about the community - it could be if done right, could being the key word. That's just not the case. It's only about yourself. Secret Dungeons

    How do I know this? Let's just say it takes one to know one. But you don't have to be a selfish player to understand this.

    A Suggestion

    Since we understand that Secret Dungeons only benefit a few selfish people (where the opener isn't a benefiting party in most cases), I would like to point out a way that can improve the system, but first...

    Why Not Increase Secret Dungeon Life?

    This is a band-aid fix and you know it. Increasing the life of these dungeons not only makes it harder to complete, but reduces the rewards you get as it's all based around contribution. If a Mimic all of a sudden had double the life it had originally, your 30% contribution worth maybe 300,000 gold would then be a 15% contribution worth 150,000. And you still paid the same amount of extra currecy to reach these results. Terrible.

    Increased life just means only a few more people get to attack. Instead of 3-4 selfish people taking everything for themselves, now its 5-6. Or maybe certain types of dungeons have so much life that it's not worth investing extra currency anymore. Extra life doesn't solve the issues addressed above. If anything, it creates even more problems because more Secret Dungeons will fail.
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Infinite Life
    - Secret Dungeons have infinite life, but still use original base life to calculate contribution.
    - If total contribution reaches or exceeds 100%, it succeeds but remains open until expiry.
    - If total contribution remains under 100% when it expires, it fails.
    - Bonus: For every additional 100% total contribution, 1 extra hero reward is given to a random contributor (contributors can only recieve 1 hero, not multiple).

    (Contribution continues to stack beyond 100%. More people can participate when Secret Dungeons don't die in a span of a few seconds or minutes.)

    This one is really simple. Make Secret Dungeons have infinite life, but use their current base life for reference in terms of contribution value. If a Mimic Secret Dungeon has 1,000,000 base life, and you deal 50,000 damage, that will be worth 5% contribution (as well as its reward's worth). This will still be the case with an infinite life dungeon; it just won't die. If the Secret Dungeon has been attacked enough to reach or go beyond 100% total contribution, then it will succeed, but still remain open. If it's under 100% total contribution by the time it expires, then it will fail as usual.

    So what about attacks made after 100% contribution? Well, how about awarding 1 extra hero for every additional 100% contribution? If players have attacked a dungeon enough times to drive the total to 401% or 485% for example, then 4 heroes will be awarded instead of 1. Otherwise there won't be much point in allowing players to make more attacks unless they really care about the base/extra currency award.

    ​​​​​​​Here's what this will do:
    - More people will be able to participate in and benefit from Secret Dungeons, not just selfish players.
    - Since Secret Dungeons would still require 100% contribution to succeed, you still need strong or active friends to help you clear it first.
    - The opener can still participate and get their attacks in even if they were away for 5 minutes or an hour.
    - Excess contribution adding more hero rewards can motivate players to invest more extra currency and still get the rewards they want (from the extra currency attacks).
    - Helps remedy the chronic gold problem many players experience.
    - No more complaining about missing your own Secret Dungeon because everyone killed it so fast.
    - No more complaining about missing the Secret Dungeon you just got added to because everyone killed it so fast.
    - No more fighting over getting the first friend request.
    If this adds too much, then a few of these measures can also be taken:
    - Slightly reduce the chance of the Secret Dungeon spawning as a Mimic or Legendary. Mythic Secret Dungeons are actually quite rare as is; don't see them for several weeks on end.
    - Slightly increase base life of all Secret Dungeon qualities so that the rewards through contribution are slightly lower.
    - No excess contribution bonus, so only 1 hero reward is given but people can make extra attacks if they want base/bonus currency reward.
    - When a Secret Dungeon reaches 100% contribution, halve the remaining time it is open so it expires sooner. Or make it close within the next 5-15 minutes after. Gives enough time for last minute additions to get their attacks.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi Demi, great suggestions here, would love to see them implemented
      If SDs are infinite life and just time limited, there needs to be a much better system for seeing what SDs are currently open when you log in.
      Every player (including myself) asking "any good SDs?" when they log in is not a good system

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by HellBent9511 View Post
        Hi Demi, great suggestions here, would love to see them implemented
        If SDs are infinite life and just time limited, there needs to be a much better system for seeing what SDs are currently open when you log in.
        Every player (including myself) asking "any good SDs?" when they log in is not a good system
        Personally, I don't really find Secret Dungeon visibility to be a serious problem nor having to ask in chat being an indicator of a bad system. Can it be annoying having to ask? Sure, but that more or less reflects your greed when your friends aren't opening anything decent. An infinite life Secret Dungeon system results in more opportunities to participate already; there are fewer time frames where you completely miss your friend's Secret Dungeons (especially the ones that are worthwhile). The game already allows you to send notifications to your phone when a friend finds a Legendary or Mythic Secret Dungeon. You're basically being spoon-fed if you were notified of everyone's Secret Dungeons immediately when you log in.

        >Log in.
        >Don't see anything good immediately.
        >Log out.


        You know this would happen.

        A compromise would be to periodically announce high-quality Secret Dungeons every 30 minutes in the opener's current channel. If you really want to know if there are any good Secret Dungeons, then all you need to do is ask if you're impatient. Eventually, you would be notified whether you decide to ask or not.

        The way you want it would have to add another UI element to chat so it displays Secret Dungeons (that were announced in the chat channel) in progress. However, I would still impose a time requirement to justify this kind of convenience. If you can't stick around for at least 10 minutes, then you probably don't have time to do/wait to be added to Secret Dungeons anyway.

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        Comment


        • #5
          Well, hope devs read this thing, this way i could also manual and still be able to check sds , because all that happens to me is that i manual all the time and i miss most of sds my friends pop because it didn't show up . Perfect idea, wish devs care more abt their game

          Comment


          • #6
            I think the issue with SD visibility could be fixed if the devs did a better tutorial for new players explaining the SD mechanics and that in order to have them cleared they need to have people participate.
            If new players knew this maybe they would do a better job of advertising, not letting their sds fail and adding people.

            I do think there should be some sort of SD visibility for all, maybe see friends of friends dungeons?

            Good point on SD notifications, will turn that on

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Darth View Post
              Well, hope devs read this thing, this way i could also manual and still be able to check sds , because all that happens to me is that i manual all the time and i miss most of sds my friends pop because it didn't show up . Perfect idea, wish devs care more abt their game
              I actually forgot that the Secret Dungeon feed doesn't work on manual. I would definitely like to see this changed to where it's still visible when when you're not on auto. Would be extremely helpful as it would allow one to be alerted when they get added and the new friend's Secret Dungeon appears, without having to constantly toggle full auto on and off to see if it appears on the feed.

              Originally posted by HellBent9511 View Post
              I think the issue with SD visibility could be fixed if the devs did a better tutorial for new players explaining the SD mechanics and that in order to have them cleared they need to have people participate.
              If new players knew this maybe they would do a better job of advertising, not letting their sds fail and adding people.

              I do think there should be some sort of SD visibility for all, maybe see friends of friends dungeons?

              Good point on SD notifications, will turn that on
              The tutorial for Secret Dungeons could be a lot better, I agree. It doesn't really do much to tell the player that they'll want active friends to help them complete Secret Dungeons, since they're no longer things you can do on your own.

              How would seeing Secret Dungeons of friends of friends work? It sounds convoluted to me. Would they just be visible in your Secret Dungeon list, but be faded out?

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Demichaos View Post

                I actually forgot that the Secret Dungeon feed doesn't work on manual. I would definitely like to see this changed to where it's still visible when when you're not on auto. Would be extremely helpful as it would allow one to be alerted when they get added and the new friend's Secret Dungeon appears, without having to constantly toggle full auto on and off to see if it appears on the feed.



                The tutorial for Secret Dungeons could be a lot better, I agree. It doesn't really do much to tell the player that they'll want active friends to help them complete Secret Dungeons, since they're no longer things you can do on your own.

                How would seeing Secret Dungeons of friends of friends work? It sounds convoluted to me. Would they just be visible in your Secret Dungeon list, but be faded out?

                r.e. SD feed on manual i had no idea
                How it would work is not really something we should worry about COM2US are the game developers, they know how to add features but i do think there needs to be higher visibility on SDs

                4 SDs failed just yesterday because no-one added FYI

                Comment


                • #9
                  Nice I really like the suggestions to finally fix the 5* summoning rates.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by HellBent9511 View Post


                    r.e. SD feed on manual i had no idea
                    How it would work is not really something we should worry about COM2US are the game developers, they know how to add features but i do think there needs to be higher visibility on SDs

                    4 SDs failed just yesterday because no-one added FYI
                    I believe that it is still worth discussing how such features would be implemented. If I adopted your way of approaching suggestions, then this thread wouldn't be as detailed as it is right now. Rather than seeing all of that, I would've instead said "Secret Dungeons suck. Go figure out a way to make it better." Does that really help? Really, think about it.

                    While com2us is in charge of the development of the game and determines what will and won't be implemented, it's clearly evident that they don't play this game. If they did, we wouldn't have countless issues and they would be very aware that the player base is dwindling. On top of that, there is minimal/no interaction between the community managers (assuming they even exist at this point) and players, let alone the development team. But I digress.

                    What kind of feedback does a developer (who doesn't play their own game) need? From players, and that includes those that know and play the game better than they can. How can they fix these kinds of problems if they don't even know where to start? If they don't know how to provide the solution players want? Would you really trust them to come up with a great solution knowing this?

                    That's why I ask you, a fellow player, to elaborate on your suggestion to improve visibility by adding a method to view the Secret Dungeons of friends of friends. How would you implement your suggestion? You know your problem better than I do, and I'm curious how you would go about solving it.
                    Last edited by Demichaos; 05-17-2019, 06:08 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Demichaos View Post

                      I believe that it is still worth discussing how such features would be implemented. If I adopted your way of approaching suggestions, then this thread wouldn't be as detailed as it is right now. Rather than seeing all of that, I would've instead said "Secret Dungeons suck. Go figure out a way to make it better." Does that really help? Really, think about it.

                      While com2us is in charge of the development of the game and determines what will and won't be implemented, it's clearly evident that they don't play this game. If they did, we wouldn't have countless issues and they would be very aware that the player base is dwindling. On top of that, there is minimal/no interaction between the community managers (assuming they even exist at this point) and players, let alone the development team. But I digress.

                      What kind of feedback does a developer (who doesn't play their own game) need? From players, and that includes those that know and play the game better than they can. How can they fix these kinds of problems if they don't even know where to start? If they don't know how to provide the solution players want? Would you really trust them to come up with a great solution knowing this?

                      That's why I ask you, a fellow player, to elaborate on your suggestion to improve visibility by adding a method to view the Secret Dungeons of friends of friends. How would you implement your suggestion? You know your problem better than I do, and I'm curious how you would go about solving it.
                      I've actually spoken to game developers before and they themselves have said the same many times (the developer in question is Paradox Interactive): when making a suggestion don't tell us how you would like something to be, but what you would like it to be

                      I.e. problem= SDs die too quickly, low visibility, too many die
                      I would like SDs to live longer and be more visible to players in different chat rooms and teach new players better how to run SDs

                      Its up to the developers how they implement that

                      This is my experience with game developers, yours might be different

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by HellBent9511 View Post
                        I've actually spoken to game developers before and they themselves have said the same many times (the developer in question is Paradox Interactive): when making a suggestion don't tell us how you would like something to be, but what you would like it to be

                        I.e. problem= SDs die too quickly, low visibility, too many die
                        I would like SDs to live longer and be more visible to players in different chat rooms and teach new players better how to run SDs

                        Its up to the developers how they implement that

                        This is my experience with game developers, yours might be different
                        Different game developers have different policies when handling suggestions for their games. Here's something to think about: What if my what and how are one and the same? Your example blurs the two.

                        Problem: Secret Dungeons die too quickly, aren't very visible, and many expire because people don't know much about them.
                        What would you like? For Secret Dungeons to live longer, be more visible in different chat rooms, and teaching new players how to clear them.
                        How would you like it? By making Secret Dungeons live longer, be more visible in different chat rooms, and teaching players how to clear them.

                        Your whats can also answer the hows. Your example is telling the developer how to fix the problem. Here's an example that lays out the problem, tells what you would like, but not how to do it.

                        Problem: Secret Dungeons die too quickly, aren't very visible, and many expire because people don't know much about them.
                        What would you like? Something that fixes this problem.
                        How would you like it? I'm not telling you how, just do something.

                        Semantics and hyperbole, I know. But at what point does a suggestion stop being only about what you would like? When does it cross into the how you would like it territory? What does and doesn't count as telling a developer how to fix the addressed issue? Does that really matter? They are suggestions, not demands.

                        Allow me to be absolutely clear about this: I'm completely aware that the developer handles the development of their game, including the implementation of features and how receptive they are to feedback and suggestions. If they can manage to resolve issues in a way that satisfies the playerbase without having to consider suggestions on how to fix them, then that's fine. I sincerely hope that a developer understands their own game enough to consider unseen scenarios and figure out the best possible solutions even without player input. I really do. I mean, it's their game, right? They should know how to do these things. We're just players, right? We shouldn't concern ourselves about decisions or approaches made by the development team. /sarcasm

                        That aside, this is a discussion forum. It is perfectly fine to discuss ideas in the Player Suggestions subforum. Discussion is encouraged, not discouraged. Do you not have any input on your own suggestion because you honestly don't know how you would go about it? Or is bringing up the 'developers only want to be told what you want, not how to make it happen' deal just an excuse so you don't have to answer (even though you might actually have an idea)?

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Wow! Very nice Demi. I enjoyed reading this alot. So descriptive. very easy to understand. Great ideas to our problems that mean alot to us. With solutions that show great thought and care. alot of intelligence went into these suggestions.
                          I hope it catches the eye of the creators.

                          To: Co.m2us
                          I am imNotFunny GM of Coffin (Hii) and I support Demi's suggestions 100%
                          if there is a way you could read and consider Demi's ideas. maybe open a discussion with him. He is a great spokesman for our community.
                          I have alot of faith that you guys will help and hear us out
                          Thank you for making WT and supporting the game, us and our needs

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