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Nat-5 Buff Priority Tier List -- (Updated 2/22/19)

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  • Nat-5 Buff Priority Tier List -- (Updated 2/22/19)

    Leaving the nerf whines to other threads, this thread is about buffs

    TIER 1:
    • Ophilia - While people who don't have her love to say "but she's good late game on great runes, I saw a streamer use her once!" ... in reality, nobody is actually using her late game for real. In the most recent guardian RTA analysis (i.e. the one place where she's finally supposed to shine) she registered as the 40th highest win rate, barely ahead of f2p mons like Theo and Racuni. We've had enough time to experiment and the conclusion is that the Threat State idea sucks. Change it to 4 turns from 3 turns but allow it to give a free turn when used so she can use s1 or s2 after.
    • Daphnis - Big ol' swing and a miss with that last buff/nerf. I'm done making suggestions here. Just try again. And please explain to me why a nat5 only gets a shield equal to 50% of damage, while a nat3 gets one for 100% of damage....
    • Grogen - S2 is an absolute joke capping at a maximum 53% chance to stun. S3 cooldown is prohibitively long at 5 turns. Awakening into resistance makes absolutely no sense at all. Change his awakening bonus to crit rate.
    • Rahul - Just bad, arguably the worst LD nat5.
    • Abellio - I dont even know where to start. It's like someone was asked to make a nat5 that would only be used to plant on their Arena Defense purely to counter Lushen ... and still failed miserably. As cool and strong as the Unicorn transform mechanic is ... the druid transform mechanic is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum.
    • Bellenus - Not quite as bad as Abellio, yet somehow equally useless anywhere in the game.
    • Geldnir - I was patient and waited to see if there was some crazy strong use for him I hadn't thought of ... but there's still nothing to see. It's like you took Darion, made him worse at damage prevention, removed his debuffs, then made him an LD nat5. Whoever designed this mon needs a permanent furlough.

    TIER 2:
    • Alexandra - Hasn't moved from tier 2. A poor man's Helena that is nothing more than a glorified AD mon.
    • Teshar - Also hasn't moved despite that 'buff' ... whatever that was. Can someone at Com2uS please explain what the point of that s3 change was? We don't need nat5s to be secret dungeon specialists.
    • Ariel - Bumped up from Tier 3 to Tier 2. A pure healbot is the most outdated thing in the game right now. There's no room for something that does nothing but heal (and occasionally strip 1 buff) when there are dozens of mons that can heal while doing 3 other useful things.
    • Nepthys - Whats the point of a super rare mon that only debuffs, giving her a passive that makes debuffs irresistable, then giving her a low chance to land her debuffs? A chance low enough that it is equal to the resist chance on effects that have 100% chance to land? I just dont get it. Since you can't change s2 without affecting other DQs, I suggest adding to her passive a 50% chance to strip on each hit.
    • Louise - Buffing her s1 proc chance was not what she needed. Her s2 is a minor inconvenience at best, and her damage is so bad that you can simply ignore it. She needs s1 to scale on HP to add depth to her kit. Currently she remains nothing more than a healbot that only shows up every 4 turns. See: Ariel ... healbots are completely outdated.
    TIER 3:
    • Raki - The only reason Raki isnt in desperate need for a buff is because of the late game RTA revive meta. If the revive meta ever fades, Raki will become completely useless.
    • Akroma - No significant PvE viability so Max HP scaling s2 doesn't make sense for her kit, and single target silence debuff is relatively low threat for having no other utility... especially now that there are 3 other nat5s with AOE silences.
    • Taor - He has gotten power-crept pretty hard. Needs an s3 buff similar to Lagmaron's. I suggest making s3 speed scaling and do more damage to one target, and 50% damage to the others with a 50% chance to freeze.
    • Sekhmet - Still bad. Buff was interesting, but it's simply not good enough. It's now a s3 that does basically the same thing as a Sea Emp s2 ... but on a longer cooldown when not used on targets with 2+ buffs... and still, as before, if it's ever resisted she becomes a waste of space
    • Laika - I've caved and now agree... just go ahead and give him his stun back.
    Last edited by Qbert; 02-22-2019, 12:59 PM.

  • #2
    When a noob thinks Ophelia needs a buff...

    when a noob further her thinks that Louise needs a buff...

    when a noob thinks teshar and Ariel needs a buff...


    When the noob can’t see this because instead of actual debate, when he can’t think of anything logical he just blocks instead. Haha

    Comment


    • #3
      When an egotist just can't keep his opinion to himself...

      Please keep going Chow old buddy, can't wait for the perma ban to happen!

      Comment


      • *Chow*
        *Chow* commented
        Editing a comment
        Yea but at least I back it up unlike the bunch’s noobs who tried to make trash balance patches such as this...

      • Qbert
        Qbert commented
        Editing a comment
        Let me guess. Chow is trying to make himself seem superior again.

        If you see him, let him know my RTA rank is currently higher than YDCB's

        and that he can stop playing his alt, nobody likes him on his new channel either

      • *Chow*
        *Chow* commented
        Editing a comment
        Let Bert knows his rta is irrelevant when it’s still pleb tier, when he can come compete in g1-g3 where the big bois play then I’ll take him serious. Ydcb is a wash up that can’t even finish g1 XD not exactly a benchmark XD

    • #4
      when you read this forum only while on the toilet and you drop one while reading some passive-aggressive comments as itnhappens

      Comment


      • #5
        Originally posted by Qbert View Post
        Leaving the nerf whines to other threads, this thread is about buffs

        TIER 1:
        • Ophilia - While people who don't have her love to say "but she's good late game on great runes, I saw a streamer use her once!" ... in reality, nobody is actually using her late game for real. In the most recent guardian RTA analysis (i.e. the one place where she's finally supposed to shine) she registered as the 40th highest win rate, barely ahead of f2p mons like Theo and Racuni. We've had enough time to experiment and the conclusion is that the Threat State idea sucks. Change it to 4 turns from 3 turns but allow it to give a free turn when used so she can use s1 or s2 after.
        • Daphnis - Big ol' swing and a miss with that last buff/nerf. I'm done making suggestions here. Just try again. And please explain to me why a nat5 only gets a shield equal to 50% of damage, while a nat3 gets one for 100% of damage....
        • Grogen - S2 is an absolute joke capping at a maximum 53% chance to stun. S3 cooldown is prohibitively long at 5 turns. Awakening into resistance makes absolutely no sense at all. Change his awakening bonus to crit rate.
        • Rahul - Just bad, arguably the worst LD nat5.
        • Abellio - I dont even know where to start. It's like someone was asked to make a nat5 that would only be used to plant on their Arena Defense purely to counter Lushen ... and still failed miserably. As cool and strong as the Unicorn transform mechanic is ... the druid transform mechanic is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum.
        • Bellenus - Not quite as bad as Abellio, yet somehow equally useless anywhere in the game.
        • Geldnir - I was patient and waited to see if there was some crazy strong use for him I hadn't thought of ... but there's still nothing to see. It's like you took Darion, made him worse at damage prevention, removed his debuffs, then made him an LD nat5. Whoever designed this mon needs a permanent furlough.

        TIER 2:
        • Alexandra - Hasn't moved from tier 2. A poor man's Helena that is nothing more than a glorified AD mon.
        • Teshar - Also hasn't moved despite that 'buff' ... whatever that was. Can someone at Com2uS please explain what the point of that s3 change was? We don't need nat5s to be secret dungeon specialists.
        • Ariel - Bumped up from Tier 3 to Tier 2. A pure healbot is the most outdated thing in the game right now. There's no room for something that does nothing but heal (and occasionally strip 1 buff) when there are dozens of mons that can heal while doing 3 other useful things.
        • Nepthys - Whats the point of a super rare mon that only debuffs, giving her a passive that makes debuffs irresistable, then giving her a low chance to land her debuffs? A chance low enough that it is equal to the resist chance on effects that have 100% chance to land? I just dont get it. Since you can't change s2 without affecting other DQs, I suggest adding to her passive a 50% chance to strip on each hit.
        • Louise - Buffing her s1 proc chance was not what she needed. Her s2 is a minor inconvenience at best, and her damage is so bad that you can simply ignore it. She needs s1 to scale on HP to add depth to her kit. Currently she remains nothing more than a healbot that only shows up every 4 turns. See: Ariel ... healbots are completely outdated.
        TIER 3:
        • Raki - The only reason Raki isnt in desperate need for a buff is because of the late game RTA revive meta. If the revive meta ever fades, Raki will become completely useless.
        • Akroma - No significant PvE viability so Max HP scaling s2 doesn't make sense for her kit, and single target silence debuff is relatively low threat for having no other utility... especially now that there are 3 other nat5s with AOE silences.
        • Taor - He has gotten power-crept pretty hard. Needs an s3 buff similar to Lagmaron's. I suggest making s3 speed scaling and do more damage to one target, and 50% damage to the others with a 50% chance to freeze.
        • Sekhmet - Still bad. Buff was interesting, but it's simply not good enough. It's now a s3 that does basically the same thing as a Sea Emp s2 ... but on a longer cooldown when not used on targets with 2+ buffs... and still, as before, if it's ever resisted she becomes a waste of space
        • Laika - I've caved and now agree... just go ahead and give him his stun back.
        Ophilia. HELL NO. That would almost give her permanent threat state. Just increase the threat state turns. Your suggestion makes it essentially a 2 turn skill. NO.

        JUST NO!

        Daphnis. NO. Daphnis is one of the hardest hitting single target nukes in the game. Often can 1 shot tanks like Ritesh, Kumar, Feng, Rakan, etc, without att buff or defense break. Can 1 shot almost all ToaH bosses and 4 shot ToaH100 boss. His shield gives him some protection. Often LOTS of protection


        Grogen. Leadership skills don't have to be relevant. Look at Beast Monks for example. As to s3 cooldown being 5 turns. Many mons have 5 turn cooldowns for s3. What is the issue?

        Rahul. LOL WUT. Shields and blocks beneficial effects. The shield is invaluable when teamed with something like that 'crappy' Ophilia or Jeanne etc. Learn how to use. Chandra is good, but glances more often on wind. Rahul doesn't meaning he is better for that use than Chandra except where there is no wind mons.


        Teshar. LOL. Troll. I had a guild mate who uses both her Teshars every Siege and GW. Before buff her Vio Teshar would usually 1 shot most defenses with it's s3, and on the rare occasion something survived often it would proc and go again. With buff now filling att bar for every kill she switched one to rage and now never has to worry about that defense. And yet still one of the best XP farmers in the game. Use in GB10 clearing is great still too.

        Ariel I disagree with. All he needs to be relevant is to prioritize his s3 so he fills attack bar, heals and heal buffs as often as he can. At the moment he is redundant because he will rarely heal unless something badly needs it. Sure, it means he almost always has his heal ready IF something needs a heal and it is his turn, but that doesn't help if it isn't his turn. Prioritizing the s3 so he tops up heal and adds heal buff as soon as it is available would mean his team would need less healing because they would heal each turn.

        Nepthys. LOL NO. AoE Strip + AoE debuff heal block+def break+glance???? LOL NO.


        Louise. At upper end PvP she is cancer. She can and does spam her s2 entirely protecting and healing her team. Prior to Kumar 'buff' his s3 heal block would counter the heal, just not the shield. Her shield+heal makes her invaluable. She just needs some good quality runes to make her invaluable.

        Raki. I agree. Very limited use that nat 4 do much better. I have contemplated making mine a tank for AoE def break where I need a fire one, but even then I don't want to waste the runes. Tried her on nuke build. Was pathetic damage. Her s3 while doing reasonable damage often doesn't do enough. Changing her s3 to a passive AND making her a HP based nuke with s1 and 2 scaling off HP would make her good no matter the meta.

        Akroma is decent. Any buffs would make her ToaH forms hell. She just needs really good runes again to shine.


        Toar. Totally agree. While Squall is still epic, Toars s3 does mediocre damage while Lags does huge damage. Speed scaling s3 would be perfect for Toar.


        Sehkmet
        Yes. Definetly needs to be buffed to be relevant. Make s3 EITHER AoE or keep single target and make irresistible. If making AoE she becomes relevant as she could strip and skill reset in one, at same time enabling her s2 to have value when she is used. If her s3 is kept single target but made irresistible, she can least lock down a single target providing that target does not vio proc.



        Laika. Could give him in built Vamp added to his Passive and change him to a HP based nuker similar to Chow. His kit makes little sense since his s2 makes him a priority, and his passive gives him the ability to punish, but often even at 35% cap he is easily beaten. Changing him to HP based scaling and giving in build Vamp makes him similar to Chow, but while Chow heals 10% every turn, Laika will heal 'x%' of damage. Even if no inbuilt Vamp, changing him to HP based would give him some utility and ability to be used in various team comps. Or just giving him inbuilt Vamp and leaving the rest as is at least makes him a viable vio threat/rage threat.


        Overall mons you suggested are either extremely rare and rarely built well because 'lackluster' or are almost entirely end game units designed for specific use. Or just a specific use. EG Daphnis is a tank killa. A Boss Killa. Had a guild mate with one on rage that with att buff and boss def broken would 1 shot db10 boss. Situational, sure. But he also used it to 1 shot every ToaH boss to 70 on mediocre rage runes too. Childish recently posted a video of him using someones Daphnis on ToaH100 and it 4 shot the ToaH100 boss with it's shield giving it almost enough protection to survive. Better runes would see it do much better. Try using it. Against Bruiser comps it wrecks

        Comment


        • Meowleonheart
          Meowleonheart commented
          Editing a comment
          so what do you think about grogen? does he need a buff or not?

      • #6
        Is this supposed to be a joke?

        Tier 1

        Ophelia - The only change she needs is making Threat State an actual state and not strippable, she doesn't need any other change or buff.

        Daphnis - They should just make him a pve mon.

        Grogen - Yep.

        Rahul - Yep.

        Abellio - I haven't seen him used at all which I guess is evidence in itself.

        Bellenus - Same as Abellio.

        Geldnir - Yeah he sucks.

        Tier 2

        Alexandra - No she is fine.

        Teshar - He's one of the best pve champs in the game what else does he need to be?

        Ariel - No. Just no.

        Nepthys - She could probably use a buff but she's no where near the bottom of the ld list.

        Louise - This is laughable.

        Tier 3

        Raki - She could use a small ult buff but she's really fine.

        Akroma - She could use a small buff but people exaggerate how bad she is.

        Taor - W T F

        Sekhmet - Oml you're trolling

        Laika - AHAHAHAHA



        No Jaara so sad

        Comment


        • immatx
          immatx commented
          Editing a comment
          GetReal So then how am I ignoring people showing me evidence if you're not talking about videos that were linked here?

          Jaara is supposed to destroy the revive meta, yeah, but she doesn't because she's not usable in rta or ao where you actually have to counter reviving. It's useless in pve where she is best used even though they nerfed her in pve, and she's too niche in gwo to be worthy of a nat 5. She does about as well as Avaris there. So yeah, she sucks. Having lots of attack doesn't make a unit good. Being useful does. Teshar is literally on this list of units needing a buff and has the highest attack in the game.

        • GetReal
          GetReal commented
          Editing a comment
          How is it not usable? You don't have Triana or Hwadam? You can't use a bait mon to decoy the nuke? How exactly is it unusable?
          Childish has some where he uses Jarra in GW. So does Monkey looking guy? Big ears and always a dopey grin? Can't stop talking? Honestly can't remember his name. Looks like Adam Sandler crossed with ET. Not sure if he has done any videos recently though. Haven't been checking YouTube lately for new packs or unit testing tbh.


          Sure, in RTA it is harder because of player control, but surely you can figure out that Jarra needs protection to be used there. So protect it. Hwadam. Triana. Chandra. Vanessa. Elad to an extent. Wind Druid? Kill their nuke. Can't be revived. Then just work them down a single unit at a time. Obviously will runes. Shield maybe. Rage or vio or fatal or swift.


          It is a niche unit. Would you bring Verad against Amelia+Velajuel? Woosa+Velajuel? Galleon against a team that had passives that made immune to def break? etc.


          People wouldn't build the nat 4 units if they had Jarra. Yeah, the nat 4's get more use. More people have them and they are largely easier to rune. No where near as hard hitting because Phoenix S2 is extremly hard hitting. Jarra is like Perna without the second life mixed with water Anubis. Yeah, because of stats he dies easy. So bring units to keep him alive. Triana + Hwadam + Jarra would be cancer for trying to kill anything if Triana was fast and both Hwadam and Triana were tanky AF. Could even use Chandra and a Fire def break unit to bait Mo Longs so Jarra can snipe safely. Even Chandra + Laika because Chandra would take little damage because Laika can only take 35% of his HP and Chandra takes half the damage.


          You just got to figure out how best to use him and when

        • immatx
          immatx commented
          Editing a comment
          GetReal Read again, I said unusable in rta or ao.

          I do have Triana built. And yes it's possible to make Jaara work there with the right comp assuming you have way better rune quality than the other person. Jaara doesn't bring anything beneficial to the fight that other units don't already have better versions of, on top of having other options. It's just not a good pick. But rta isn't the only mode (even if it's the only mode where single target anti revive makes sense) so that's ok as long as Jaara is good elsewhere, but she's not. She's mediocre at best in every other mode.

          Yes I'm aware what Jaara's kit is. Just because you can make her work doesn't mean she's good. It means she's usable, and only in a few places. Usable is not good enough for a niche ld nat 5. If she's going to be niche, fine, she should at least be amazing in that niche. If she can't be amazing, fine, make her not be niche. She shouldn't niche and not be good.

      • #7
        Claims he blocks me, knows more about me than most on the forum does, someone has a school girl crush XD

        Comment


        • #8
          There was a really solid point made by someone (I think on a stream), that Ophelia is actually very good as she is.

          If you use her to counter the enemy, she does that extremely well. With Jeanne, you have the provoke, but it's countered by resistance and immunity buffs. With Ophelia, her "provoke" bypasses resistance and immunity, but is countered by strips and aoe skills.

          Currently the units that are the "best" are the ones that don't require much aside from crazy violent runes to be good and very straightforward skills. Ophelia is one of those units you bring in when you advanced knowledge of what you are bringing and what the enemy is using against you.

          Aside from Ophelia, the others you mentioned are ok. Most of the units that generally need buffs are ones that are over-glorified Nat 4's or have generally outdated kits.

          Comment


          • #9
            wot? buff ophilia? hellll no.....
            only 1 i agree with lil bit of change is Raki. She is same or worst off than nat4.

            Comment


            • immatx
              immatx commented
              Editing a comment
              alee065 Oddly enough Raki is better than Ophilia

          • #10
            https://www.reddit.com/r/summonerswa..._be_in_purple/ < should be ophilia's buff.

            Comment


            • #11
              Ophilia: make Threat a state at best. She is stat hungry but she's nowhere near bad/underperforming. She's really good.

              Daphnis: completely overhaul his 3rd skill. Either make it a passive ornaomeor something like that.

              Grogen: He's decent in the current Arena Meta but nothing amazing. Deserves some love.

              Rahul: Change 3rd skill debuff to aoe atk break and he's fine.

              Abellio: Total crap. Needs a buff.

              Bellenus: I find him underrated, but I dontd have one to play with.

              Glendir is by far the worst LD Nat5

              Alexandra: Stat hungry, but pretty good

              Teshar: PvE king. His 3rd skill change was meant for lab and secret dungeons. Working as intended. Only issue is his AI.

              Ariel: best AD healer in the game. Is it one dimensional? Yes, but does his job well.

              Nephthys: Just because she has no 100% activation rate, doesn't mean she is bad. She has a great passive.

              Louise: currently building mine. Won't talk much until I tried her for a while. From what I see she can be pretty annoying in GWD.

              Raki: Tanky Raki is pretty good. My guildie made it to g2 in RTA using her as a core unit. She could get a tweak in her 3rd skill but nothing too crazy. Something like Barbaric Kings which get a steroid while 3rd skill is on cooldown could be interesting.

              Akroma: tough case. On paper her passive is awesome. Practically speaking she's a sitting duck.

              Taor: I'd say he's still fine for cleave AO and PvE


              Sekhmet: could get a buff. Make her 3rd skill get one activation rate only would be a good start.

              Laika: Already mentioned how he should have been nerfed back in the day. Instead of ditching the stun entirely -> less chance to revenge (35% chance for example) + 50% chance (or so) to stun after the revenge. This solution came after people saying they wanted to keep the revenge (while my initial idea was to ditch the revenge and keep the stun)

              Comment


              • Taryu
                Taryu commented
                Editing a comment
                OPHILIA: I still don't get why Threat is stripeable and knowledge is not

                DAPHNIS: As long as Daphnis is not at Water Monkey level he won't be good enough

                RAHUL: I don't think atk break is enough for Rahul

                GROGEN: just needs crit rate awakening bonus and better leader skill

                ABELIO: I just agree

                BELLENUS: just strange, don't like it

                GLENDIR: As ****ty as ld nat5 as Rahul

                ALEXANDRA: I find her awesome, don't know why people complain so much... but i don't have one then i can't say with precision

                TESHAR: He was already awesome and got a buff, like wth

                ARIEL: Archangels need a rework... my opinion tho

                NEPHTHYS: doesn't do enough to be good anywhere

                LOUISE: She's annoying at GWD and that's it

                RAKI: fine as she is, i won't complain again after her s2 buff and non-glancing buff for s3 but a buff for my monsters is always welcome

                AKROMA: weird for me, can't talk much about it

                TAOR: won't be bad just cause Lag got a buff

                SEKHMET: A fine monster, i use mine pretty often and she does the job(sometimes). She's not a great monster but definitely not a bad one
                Two buff ideas i got for Sekhmet:
                idea1: make her strip AOE but her reset still single target(like gany)
                idea2: Make her stealing effect like elsharion, sharing the buffs she steal with her teammates

                LAIKA: Laika is DEAD after they take off his stun from his passive, it really hurted for Laika owners. Just give his stun back without the 100% activation chance BS, 50% is fine

              • Swazky
                Swazky commented
                Editing a comment
                Taryu I limited to reply to OP and the units he mentioned... And about Ophilia, I totally agree. She should not be able to be stripped, but she's way better than most people say she is

            • #12
              Both my ld nat5s are tier 1 in the list, what a coincidence.

              Comment


              • #13
                Jager should be on this list. He's a trophy that you get out and dust off every few months to show the friends and put right back. Maybe his passive needs to extend to all allies? It wouldn't make him less niche, but at least you'd have to think about the other mons in the team he's on rather than CC the team and pick him off.

                Comment


                • Someoner
                  Someoner commented
                  Editing a comment
                  What are the stats and runes on your Jager?

                • artynonymous
                  artynonymous commented
                  Editing a comment
                  32k 1.7k atk 1.2k def 180ish 80-85 cr and like 160 cd on vamp. Max skilled. Even his s2 (a great skill) is based on killing other allies first and him punishing you for it - so you just focus him down and he's a wasted slot. At least MHW has defense break, stun on s1, and a built in heal on a shorter cooldown on s2 with a very similar passive.

                  He needs tweaked.
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