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GW wth is this baloney?!

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  • #16
    Lol Cold-Krush

    Nice try at portraying things as if I'm talking about something like rune drops or summon rates etc being "not fair".. Hm.. Here's a nice, short tl;dr version just for you: "It's cheating, and its not riiiiiiggghhhtt"... A subtle difference, it's true; but I hope this clarification helps......

    For a well-written, concise post about the effect of "hopping" on the game, and further insight as to why it might bother and affect myself and many others, you can try actually reading what Frogger wrote above.

    No cry babies or old ladies round here, just a sad little troll trying to derail.. Now run along back to your elitist, complacent, self-satisfied, lil safe space in your ivory g3 tower, and leave the "real talk" to people actually interested in the topic. And if SW is no longer any fun for you, I suggest you move on to a different game. Don't let the door hit ya on your way out.

    Oh, no off ofc.. And ty for your valuable input. Have a good day

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    • #17
      Lol, I hope you have a nice day as well.

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      • #18
        The switch guild system is not for gw but for gs. Siege farmers do this. 3,4 endgame players switch guild when the rank gets to high. Usualy they have 3 or 5 miniguilds created with alts. And NO is not leggit since com2us rules forbid heavy abuse but.... not even troll2us care about their own rules.

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        • #19
          increase "unable to join guild" to a week then.

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          • #20
            Search guild hopping on reddit and see my article on it I posted over 3 years ago. Com2Us has had plenty of time to address the issue if they felt it was ruining the game.

            I helped to invent a version of it but I’m pretty sure I wasn’t the first. A few things to consider:

            Yes it does require much more attentive and active gameplay to successfully hop than normal 2x day guild wars. Think of doing 6 guild wars every weeknight Wed -Sat. Yeah the first 2-3 battles can be low rank and easy, but win 2-3 in a row and you are already g1 and many guilds put their better defenses out on Thursday or Friday which makes for 3-8 minutes per fight if you can’t speed clear. That’s an easy 1-2 hr per night focusing just on gw spread across 6 hrs. Farming does not take as much attention as gw in most cases so 1-2 hr farming does not equate to 1-2 hr of gw.

            Another aspect is the karma of guild hopping. Think of this, for one group of 10 hoppers to successfully hop they need at least 4 guilds setup and registered with 10 attackers. From what I know right now we actually use 6-7 or so per group of 10. Only one guild makes it to g1 at the end of the week usually, so the other 5-6 guilds are free wins for whoever pulls them, regardless of what rank they end up. At that point they are no different than a normal g1 farm guild putting out level 1 fodder defenses as their “farm”.

            From previous comments this same idea translates over to siege. Understandably a little more frustrating to pull a hopping guild trying to rush 1 day in siege, but they have 3-5 guilds deranking which give opportunities for others to get wins while they win as well.

            If you want on the ride find out who to talk to. We are out there and are willing to help if you wanna put in the effort.
            Last edited by Kiyyun; 02-06-2019, 12:37 PM. Reason: typo

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            • #21
              Nah, not recruiting just letting you talk with someone who has and is participating in this. I’ve stated my reasons as to why I’m ethically okay with the practice in terms of how it affects others. I’ve explained the process in the Reddit post so if there are others that want to attempt to achieve the same thing they are more then willing to do so. I opened the topic up there early on as to not hide what we were attempting.

              I call it it an issue because I understand that it is debateable. I agree it is not the standard 12 gw per player per week limit. At the same time it is if you consider the fact that for each player they have other alt accounts that are essentially donating their gw attacks to another player. There is nothing in the TOS or the way gw is currently structured that says giving up your gw attacks to a new member that joined the guild is disallowed or illegitimate.

              In the end all this effort does allow hoppers to get ~2600-2700 guild points per week from normal guild war instead of 1200 like someone in a g1 guild that wins 100% doing +6. Siege ends up being in the c2-3 range most times so siege doesn’t get as good of rewards as a winning g1 siege guild.

              With regards to rank endings for guilds, g1 is based off of top %, so if you assume the hoppers are g1 level in a normal guild then if they end g1 on sat night in the guild they fight in there they haven’t changed the overall rankings at all. Conversely, since they have created alt guilds that end anywhere from f3 to c3 they have increased the pool of guilds thus allowing more guilds to end g1. This also assumes that hoppers don’t break into g2 but that is very unlikely since their defense is typically so easy to beat.

              So, all I’m trying to do is point out that this “exploit” as you call it doesn’t affect ending ranks in a meaningful way and the benefit is merely one weeks additional gp per week for all the effort that it takes to coordinate 10-15 players moving from guild to guild every day. As such, it seems appropriate that Com2Us has allowed this to continue since I’m sure they have been aware of it. I can imagine they have metrics that can show how many gp each account gets per week.

              You are entitled to disagree with this assessment that 1400 gp a week is too much for anyone to get extra or that it ruins the “spirit” of your game. Some would contend that ever putting a weak farming arena defense or guild war defense is likewise against the spirit of the game for pvp, but I know that’s a different subject.

              Partially I write this up for you to read but also for others to see that it is not just some wild hair thing to try and ruin the game for others, but a well thought out system to enjoy the game in a different way within the confines the game has provided. If Com2us sees fit to change the mechanics around this like they have done with siege that is their choice. The benefits in this are nowhere near the levels that the solo g1 siege farming benefits were. Even still 3-4 player siege farming still occurs as that is the way they enjoy the game.

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              • #22
                The post that keeps on giving.... hahaha thank you for this Qaal justice warrior

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                • #23
                  give up now, the kiddies don't understand the ethics of gaming, only their personal profit margin

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Kiyyun View Post
                    Nah, not recruiting just letting you talk with someone who has and is participating in this. I’ve stated my reasons as to why I’m ethically okay with the practice in terms of how it affects others. I’ve explained the process in the Reddit post so if there are others that want to attempt to achieve the same thing they are more then willing to do so. I opened the topic up there early on as to not hide what we were attempting.

                    I call it it an issue because I understand that it is debateable. I agree it is not the standard 12 gw per player per week limit. At the same time it is if you consider the fact that for each player they have other alt accounts that are essentially donating their gw attacks to another player. There is nothing in the TOS or the way gw is currently structured that says giving up your gw attacks to a new member that joined the guild is disallowed or illegitimate.

                    In the end all this effort does allow hoppers to get ~2600-2700 guild points per week from normal guild war instead of 1200 like someone in a g1 guild that wins 100% doing +6. Siege ends up being in the c2-3 range most times so siege doesn’t get as good of rewards as a winning g1 siege guild.

                    With regards to rank endings for guilds, g1 is based off of top %, so if you assume the hoppers are g1 level in a normal guild then if they end g1 on sat night in the guild they fight in there they haven’t changed the overall rankings at all. Conversely, since they have created alt guilds that end anywhere from f3 to c3 they have increased the pool of guilds thus allowing more guilds to end g1. This also assumes that hoppers don’t break into g2 but that is very unlikely since their defense is typically so easy to beat.

                    So, all I’m trying to do is point out that this “exploit” as you call it doesn’t affect ending ranks in a meaningful way and the benefit is merely one weeks additional gp per week for all the effort that it takes to coordinate 10-15 players moving from guild to guild every day. As such, it seems appropriate that Com2Us has allowed this to continue since I’m sure they have been aware of it. I can imagine they have metrics that can show how many gp each account gets per week.

                    You are entitled to disagree with this assessment that 1400 gp a week is too much for anyone to get extra or that it ruins the “spirit” of your game. Some would contend that ever putting a weak farming arena defense or guild war defense is likewise against the spirit of the game for pvp, but I know that’s a different subject.

                    Partially I write this up for you to read but also for others to see that it is not just some wild hair thing to try and ruin the game for others, but a well thought out system to enjoy the game in a different way within the confines the game has provided. If Com2us sees fit to change the mechanics around this like they have done with siege that is their choice. The benefits in this are nowhere near the levels that the solo g1 siege farming benefits were. Even still 3-4 player siege farming still occurs as that is the way they enjoy the game.
                    Again I state there is a HUGE difference between what may be legal and what is right. You know what you are doing is wrong.

                    I wholeheartedly disagree with your conclusions that you do not affect rankings. Your team switching into a low ranked guild and wiping the floor with the opponent lowers their ranking due to the loss, thus it hurts their team. It also raises the ranking of the "garbage" guild you just joined putting it out of the pool of potential guilds for the guild you just destroyed to draw against. They now have a loss they might not have had and little chance of matching up against the guild that just beat them with now empty defenses since their rank dropped and the "garbage" guild rank increased.

                    You do on the other hand give easy wins to guilds that are already higher ranked. This in turn creates a feeding system for the top % of guilds and effectively locks out guilds that are on the cusp. It also artificially inflates the score needed to get into the top % denying some guilds the chance to get rewards for a higher ranking.

                    You also gain 2-3 times the normal amount of GP thus enabling you to acquire far more than then intended amount of rewards. You say you are "finding a way to enjoy the game differently". Same lies people have used for decades to justify using exploits. You simply can't compete unless you cheat.

                    However you justify it you are just like every other scamming, lying, cheating, zero morals, me first, dbag out there. You put more effort into finding way to cheat than you would expend playing the game as intended. Just like the spammers and botters you can't see past your own selfish desires and only wish to steal from others to make yourself feel accomplished.

                    You can't justify in any moral way doing what you are doing and deep down you either know it or should!

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                    • #25
                      Someoner Exploiting can be. Hear me out. Hackers are bad because they give an unfair advantage utilizing alteration of source code, which is a directly changing aspect of the game to gain the advantage. Exploiters utilize loopholes that can be found in the game to gain the same kind of advantage. In a game such as this, which only has RTA being the only true live PvP, most exploiters are just using meta monsters to create a very difficult win win scenario, so most of the time the exploits are not easy to track down and create a case to help get it fixed. (Or whales spent a lot of money to gain the meta teams.) In games, like MMOs, exploits can be seen by other players and be reported rather quickly. In the case listed by the OP, it's not that easy to see.

                      What I'm getting at here, is ultimately, it's a game that is supposed to be a time sink. The more time you are in the game, the more likely you would give money to the game. A shortcut exploit and/or hack both shortens the time for players to want to keep playing as well as gives a negative effect to players on the receiving side. This is why the devs do balances (nerfs) on some monsters. Games are entertainment, if it is no longer fun to play (either too easy or whatever) it's no longer wanted to be played.

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                      • #26
                        My ears were burning.

                        Now as for farming:

                        Do you have a strong defense on GW all week or do you have weak defense to artificially lower your rank so you can attack legitimately weaker guilds for easy wins?
                        Do you have your best AD out all week or do you have a troll defense Monday-Friday to again keep your rank lower than it could be.
                        Do you play all your RTA matches for 2-3 hours a day only to win/lose 50% to RNG or do you auto and quit to speed up the process and still win/lose 50%?

                        As hoppers we do miss out on Lab so there is some trade off there.

                        Now as for cheating. First of all, cheaters are those players that are getting 100m in Rift, 15 second Cairos runs, beating TOA/H at level 1 to farm LD nat 5s, [System] bot spamming chat to steal accounts, RTA players with 0 cool down on their monsters or other exploits that cause the match to cancel so they don't lose.

                        What we do is not cheating, not against any rules what so ever. We may be doing something to an extreme that is not intended but it is still perfectly legit to do. At any time Com2Us can change how the game works and then what we do might not work anymore.

                        Finally our guild family is very active, we all play a lot, chat a lot and overall have a lot of fun.

                        I am sorry you don't like what we do, but whenever you fight us it is an easy win. If you fight us in Siege we will be happy to farm with you, or happy to battle it out.

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                        • #27
                          OK since people don't seem to understand my points and tbh I didn't make it crystal clear, here goes:

                          Yes I understand how wins vs losses work.
                          Yes I understand that farming guilds also cause a similar problem. No I do not condone farming either I just see no way to prevent it. Since it can't be prevented, and impacts the game to a lesser extent I did not focus on it.
                          Yes I always have my best defenses up in arena and gw.
                          I do not participate in RTA.

                          Having answered all of that here is how it all works and why it affects everyone within the range affected by the hoppers, and yes the farmers.

                          Its not just about the individual wins and losses its about manipulating the pool of opponents! If you can control what opponents you are matched against some will always choose to fight those weaker than themselves and "win" to gain greater rewards no matter how hollow the victory is.

                          Both farming and hopping accomplish this in similar ways. Being weak through low defenses or abandoning the guild with the high lvls which artificially lowers your guild rank thus allowing you to be matched with weaker opponents. This allows you to defeat them more easily and gain points by winning due to your higher attack potential and high defenses on the hoppers or changing to high defense on the farmers

                          Take the numbers I posted above the span of 1027-1262 guild points and 5884 guilds within that span. There are also 4 rankings within that span, c2,c3,g1,g2. So assuming an even distribution(which we know is not true) there are 1471 guilds in each rank. The game clearly shows that C2 is approximately the top 20% of guilds c3 is 15% G1 is 10% and G2 is in the top 100 guilds so we know for a fact that the distribution is not even. However for purposes of explanation it will do.

                          Given the numbers and ranges shown above it is clear that pool manipulation can change your rank dramatically. Lets also take at face value the stated ability to gain 2-3 times the normal number of gps. To gain 2-3 times the number of gps they simply must be winning the majority of the matches where the high level members are present as simply getting individual wins with the +1,2,3 etc does not equate to the stated gains.

                          So how does it work? High levels in a guild they enter gw, win and leave. This moves the guild up in ranking due to the win, thus changing the pool that gets a chance to attack the now weak guild. They then join another guild, which is lower ranked due to high levels not being present so they are fighting against guilds from a weaker pool again. In the mean time the first weak guild gets defeated dropping it to a lower pool. This is repeated multiple times until Saturday where the high levels stay in a guild and reap the rewards of the higher ranking. All guilds within the ranges stated above, again actual in-game data, are affected since their possible opponents are changed by the artificial manipulation of the pool

                          If your guild does not get matched against these hoppers, you are still impacted as your ranking changes, even during a single fight. I have seen our guild go from c2 to g1 while we were still in one guild fight, had not won or lost. This shows how much the pool of opponents changes near the top percentages of guilds. Now if you are matched at c2, which we were, the pool gets manipulated as explained above, and your next fight is g2 regardless of your own actions it greatly impacts your play.

                          The ability and impact of manipulating the pool of opponents is the problem.

                          Since people like to bring RL examples check any non professional sport, high school, college, etc. They spend tons of time developing and refining systems to create pools of teams/opponents to attempt to make the system fair for all. For example rating a school 1A thru 5A they do not let 5A schools play against 1A schools.

                          Imagine a ranking system for college football that allowed "pool" manipulation on the scale and impact that the guild hopers create in SW. People would go to jail.

                          If you can't figure it out with the above explanation then there is no point conversing with you. Those who are doing it are simply wrong and they know it, they simply lack the moral character to play the game as intended and attempt to hide behind arguments such as "there's no rule against it". Of course there is no rule against it most people would have never thought to try so hard to get around the guild hopping systems already in place that they felt a need to make a rule against it.

                          Perhaps some of you should look up Pyrrhic victory and consider the cost to your morals before continuing on your present course of action. Do you really need those points so badly that you cheat others to get it?

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                          • #28
                            Well let me just go slightly off topic for a moment. You have seen the videos of Kat R5 teams? These teams that can run full damage with little to no survivability because they do so much burst damage that they break the jump mechanic of the boss. This means the boss cannot jump, cannot do damage to kill the squishy team and dies in 10-45 seconds. While other teams take 1.5-2 minutes or longer. These players are doing something to an extreme that is not what the game intends but which is allowed within the current code of the game. Would you say these players are cheating too? They are getting 5x or more the amount of Gems and Grinds as other players through this manipulation of the game.

                            Now back to GW. I do agree that the ranks are compacted. G1 has a huge range of rank and the battles are not really difficult until you get close to G2. But G1 around rank 2000 vs rank 400 when things get tough is close to 5-6 wins. While you can start at the bottom of Fighter and get 7 wins and get into G1. If these ranks were bigger then it would be harder to climb.

                            I also want to mention another form of manipulation which is doing rush battles. You can get to G2 and then save 6 attacks and rush those in the last 2 hours. What this does is allow you to take your losses first from teams that are not usually G3, perhaps even getting some wins. Then doing your battles starting with "relatively" weaker teams to quickly climb up and not have to worry as much about defense losses since time is running out for GW.

                            Siege has it's own problems. The main problems are 1) the rewards, 2) the effort required to build 10 defs, 3) the time commitment. Now you look at the rewards for a G3 guild vs farming G1 for those G3 players (Above my level) and there is no comparison. The rewards you get is 3-4x from farming. And so long as that is the case you will never stop the farming because it is the most rewarding method for those players.

                            If players are doing things in the game that are allowed by the game then you will not stop that.

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                            • #29
                              This has been happening since the siege started, your not in the top 10% of players or fighting for a legit spot in the rankings so why does it bother you so much.
                              There is no real way to limit it unless Com2us puts a cap on battles allowed per week. As for this whole rage fest you started its definitely not "cheating" they are playing without the bounds of the system, flawed as it may be. You could say its unfair because your to lazy to do it yourself but other than that your just looking for people to agree with you and ignoring those that don't.

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                              • #30
                                My biggest question for you, Qaal , is even though you don't set "farming" defenses, do you attack them? If so, you are equally contributing to the very problem you are condemning. If not, then I might believe that you genuinely disapprove of the practice.

                                That aside, this entire thread has devolved into a chaotic mess that should probably get thrown into the dumpster fire it belongs in.

                                I personally do not care if a group of people are guild hopping. It genuinely is not that big of a deal to me. If they want to devote the exhaustive amount of resources (Time, Money, Effort) into doing it, whatever.

                                I personally do not think there should be an increase in guild joining wait times. I wish you could leave and join guilds freely, as you wish. The 12 hour wait time is more irritating to me when I am trying to change guilds which I do once in a while. A counter-improvement, to combat this evil you have decided to wage war on, would be to increase the wait time to get swords. Maybe you can leave a guild and join immediately, but you won't get swords until AT LEAST 24 hours, or something to that effect.

                                I feel that if you consider it your duty to moral police everyone, on the internet, you should probably go find something else to do.

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