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Serious discussion about ardor and dark.

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  • Serious discussion about ardor and dark.

    Look i grow tired of having to bring these up but in all seriousness this is really getting ridiculous with the ardor and dark synergy i have done exhaustive testing for counter formations and aces i can only see it being worse for other players because right now its heavily becoming run that particular team or be at a heavy disadvantage. Kiera-very sturdy unit can wall and intercept far to effectively for what was supposed to be a niche unit look at nono wonny ainy they function best to stop one shot teams and aren't very reliable for full time use nono even having an ee still seems more niche pick. Ashe not much more to say here has incredible walling potential and that active is definitely very strong has no counter aside from rosie or aiolos which doesn't offset much. Serestia/metatron also have extreme synergy potential can't really say much about meta being an issue however serestias paralysis active is starting to become an ugly thing when there is also an ashe around.Dalgi now this is an interesting one dalgi her self not really much of an issue however her debuff is curious as when a target goes negative critical damage resist they start taking more damage from criticals. But the biggest enabler for most of the current issue is eins ace there is no one specific ace that truly handles it as its really whats making things difficult to handle. As for counter play units (my perspective ariel is almost a necessity, cashlove suffers from to much rng on passives to be effective as you give up a more useful player.All forms of passes are shutdown by a single player yet they get no issue full time using it. I would like as much input as possible on this from others seeing as no one else wants to do the dirty work.

  • #2
    Been playing for awhile now and upon reaching champions league its all just clone teams of ardor and dark with players who are a real headache to handle and are really hard to deal with more so with eins ace in the mix specifically ashe kiera and to a degree cypher with eins ace its quickly becoming a no fun zone for people in diamond through champions league perhaps these players need to be considered a bit for some work given how almost every team looks identical to one another to the point theres very low variety among opponents. Really seems unbalanced when you consider what eins ace does for these players in particular thoughts on this?


    • #3
      Just need to look at the top GSL currently to realize there are dark/ardor everywhere...
      I have no problem with Ein who can be destroy by a lot of striker or Cypher who is at the same level as Voncheat (If you nerf one, you must nerf the other).
      BUT...Ashe is a "khirelx10", impossible to touch him without exploding, not to mention his active way too long and powerful which should at least be reduced to 3 minutes.
      Kiera need a massive stats nerf, cause she's a ridiculous wall no one can bypass, and maybe increase spirit/cooldown of his interception skill (150/12).
      Those 2 players combined in the middle are so cancer, I already know I will lose every time I meet them :'(

      Maybe the legend light GK will change the meta, a lot of people start to think about light........... / ardor !
      Last edited by Morgia; 10-07-2018, 02:06 PM.


      • #4
        Of the top thirteen in the standings, eleven have Ein ace... here is the new meta !
        Last edited by Morgia; 10-07-2018, 11:12 PM.


        • #5
          Lets look at things logically the current meta mid is majority of the time serestia ashe kiera with kiera as cm using a ccj primary stone becomes much harder to ko due to natural toughness further powered by eins own ace which goes a long way for the rest of the team. Ashe yes he is leaning a bit to far on the strong side for all he does including the active not much else to say here. Cypher is another partial issue in this as has strong debuff synergy with meta and seres making it particulary unfun to deal with. I suspect you dont see this mentioned much because almost everyone uses the same exact team and i will say it again the other interceptors do not hold a candle to kiera and i do not expect them getting EE will change much just look at nono haven't seen a single ww player use. In the end kiera will likely see the entire interceptor type rebalanced with a cost/time adjustment most likely but still dependant on bb. Just remember usage/ace rates are one of the biggest factors of what gets buffs/nerfs. It takes the base to still remind bb no matter how little impact of whats out of line lets see more add to this. Notable outliers melissa thats to much power creep in an assist/rudiel completely over powered in a kirin front worse with artio stone.
          Last edited by vidman; 10-08-2018, 02:19 AM.


          • #6
            (Originally from teddy01's thread.)

            Hello, there is a similar thread so I will be combining this post into that one.

            We will be monitoring the discussion as we hear more player opinions on this matter.

            Thank you.


            • #7
              I believe that most of the faults lies within Ein's ace well as Dark itself.

              The Ein Problem
              Ein's ace part of speed and hp is nothing to worry about, rather it is the cdmg resistance that is extremely questionable.

              It is 28% cdmg res, a bit more than Half than Aiolos and Shaman active, bit more than Rosie and almost twice of Jiho's. 25% cdmg resistance is a little more than Elr. So what is the problem? Why shouldn't she be like this?

              Few reasons
              1.Shaman and Aiolos must active and can be wiped
              2. Rosie does not provide much of anything else and only provides half as much as an cdmg res active
              3. Jiho gives a lot in terms of support but she is down toned to reflect her versatility

              Ein is giving this to everyone on the team along with hp and action speed (Which is the best part considering the meta we're in). She is doing more than Jiho in a sense. She is allowing the team to be both fast and defensive at the same time with strength to it. Which I believe no ace does so. HP aces with damage or speed is debatable but generally it is not really allowing you to be defensive. It would be more of having offensive ace with DR, Cres or CDMG resistance.

              otherwise I believe that Ein is a pretty okay player. Punishes teams for being slow by charging a passive which helps her tank a shot every 4 minutes, punishable by fast ohko and can be overwhelmed.

              The Dark Problem
              Ashe is way over his head in terms of power and wide range. He isn't just an absolute powerhouse to himself, but he is a static power house to those within and vertical of him. His active is extremely oppressive and long in a game where the action is getting too fast for little to happen for 4 minutes. What does that mean?
              You have a player that so powerful and wide range that he can allow the entire mid to wall offensively. Combined with some very strong debuff dark players. Their mid is not going to be much of a threat no matter what they do.

              You have Cypher who has damage increase and increase damage. Someone who can run two red cdmg. Thats alot of dr (14%x2 + 20% up to 2 times) gone, not only that but he also increase that damage by 15% because why the hell not? This is extremely dangerous, and considering his debuff applies to the entire line, good luck getting out. He also provides a lot of mobility due to giving 15% ab to the position when receiving a pass or shooting. For alot of damage he is outputting at a fast pace, he provides alot of mobility. He is OHKO, he is Ramp, he is utility, he is debuff. He is the Ultimate striker in my opinion.

              Cypher and Ashe is the accurate representation of Dark, best in everything, everywhere and all the time. They have players who are very strong themselves and we have players who are very good at debuffing while being strong themselves. Kiera and Pinol

              Kiera is an extremely oppressive player debuffing crit/reflex/ap at a value of 30%. I do not believe any player can match 3 items at a high value. Not only that but she also will prevent any desperate attempts to escape the hell the opponents call backline that you have caused. Coupled with Ashe she can really make a mid just give up. She steals hp when attacked and has 35% dr and 20% as. That is quite an amount as she already dominated the midline with her debuff now she is just a menace as well.

              Pinol nerf was actually just BB guiding players to use him right. You place him in the backline, he has a huge presence there. He STEALS spirit when the opponents act, he has a as and reflex debuff to the position whenever he acts. He can spread that to other positions too. He has the same AS and DR passive as Kiera, like this is way to much for one player to have. Not even spirit god Nari can compete with him. Both you and him are going to be at maxed spirit if allowed. There is simply not enough players who can generate a substantial amount of spirit to counter Pinol. Especially if you have to run through Serestia. You have to generate spirit else where which is also a problem because the few we have are not enough to be used comfortably. If you do not have revives you can expect a lot of spirit to be gone when the striker is down.

              The problem is that your team is just so weak that any weaknesses that are apparent are offset by massive debuffs that is present everywhere. All because of one player from dark in every position. Can you counter Pinol in mid if he debuffs you along side with Kiera? Can you provide your mid with enough to break mid? Can you even escape to the front? Its a feat.

              These are just examples, there are many that are just wide spread or powerhouses.

              The Ardor Problem
              You might wonder why I targeted Dark specifically, not to say that Ardor isn't the problem I'll also go over what are the problems with Ardor in this Ardor Dark meta.

              ...Very little on this side...
              Ardor players are not really good in general with exceptions and rather it is the problem of the legends.

              Ein - Legend gk that punishes the only thing people really know what to do, pile striker and shoot. She forces a fast style when it comes to tackling her unless you can nab a really fast ohko before 4minutes. Her ace problem is that absurd amount of Cdmg resistance with that amount of action speed and hp. It is just too much.

              Choi - Bane of everyone because he's most likely running a TB LUQ. 50% as and 75% ap to position with a pass. He gains quite a lot of damage from his kit. Everything else on him is conditional so its pretty easy to knock him down and keep him down.

              Nabi - Is a problem because she basically is better Askeladd. Although her debuff of 15% dr and 50% healing is 1minute, thats not much of a problem when things happen really fast and when she can active pass which is probably going to cause a lot of damage. Strong stealer and waller because of 60% ap and 50% dr. Fast mid because of 25% reflex and speed totem. Just really disgusting to fight in a ardor dark mid if you can squeeze her with Kiera and Ashe. Just a really noticable player from the ardor side.

              Melisa - You can probably guess why, strong totem of cdmg and reflex, fast, absurd amount of pass. I swear the only things that are op in ardor should be locked.

              Why not Jiho? because I think she has some justifiable values for her versatility
              This is what I believe is the problem with Ardor Dark team. They are combining the burst of ardor with the absolute power of Dark. I think the problem lies with Ein's cdmg res ace and Dark. Dark needs to be seriously looked at over, I don't mean to gut them but there really needs to be some way to fight back other than just power it. What happens when you reached the peak? Dark will always be on top. They just really do too much and too good at it. They do things that no one can do. There should be no "its fine because they are a legend". You might as well make them a god.
              Last edited by Dasifeno; 10-10-2018, 12:25 PM.


              • #8
                tl';dr Dark is synergizing far too well right now and no other color comes close to this. Thunder's been power crept in mid. Light cant do anything about dark right now. Ein is silly. Kiera is far and away the best interceptor to the point that it makes Nono's release questionable at best.

                this is more heavy handed than release Miri.

                it's Ardor/Dark's turn right now. WW is in limbo, and Thunder/Light ball is coming
                Last edited by Densuo; 10-10-2018, 04:33 PM.


                • #9
                  I'm surprised it hasn't been brought up yet, but another example of too much ardor / dark synergy is the use of Action Bar "eaters" (e.g. Milena and Micki). When used together in the backline, it's almost impossible for the opponent's frontline actually perform an action (and it's even worse with an Action Speed increasing ACE).

                  I've had full 45 minute fights in Champion's League against Milena/Micki backlines where I literally could not get a single shot off.


                  • #10
                    This really is getting to far out of hand you have tb/ccj nabi and kiera walling everything with damage reflect that takes out everything even causing attackers refusal to pen with ashe on the other side sporting an ic/tb going through a cashlove with 78+ dr still doing 1500+ damage with 777 passive up. Meanwhile that same kiera is taking 3-5 steal attempts to ko on top of being the only usable interceptor. Now as shipwreck has stated milena and pinol are far from "useless" as some claim so long as micki exists with a ronald gk you can get infinite looped, all in all this is easily the worst meta i have seen yet and i can say that with certainty as i have a very wide and high level of invested players of my element and find reliable counter play extremely difficult to pull off at times.
                    Attached Files


                    • #11
                      y'all wasting your time and bandwith. just wait till lightball shows up.The proof is in the pudding. These last sets of patches Light players have been getting boosted. I suppose we'll get it there.

                      But hopefully the pendulum stops swinging so hard.
                      Last edited by Densuo; 10-15-2018, 11:33 AM.


                      • #12
                        This really is ridiculous there is 0 literal counter play to darks blatant over reach just what are you supposed to do when paralyzed and active locked on top of a mid that has all the stats and debuffs it could want passers are out ashe/kiera walls everything serestia punishes you heavily and funny enough pinol still is behaving exactly the same as i see him very often this reminds me of that 5% nerf we saw to shaman and nabi some time back which literally did nothing.


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by vidman View Post
                          This really is ridiculous there is 0 literal counter play to darks blatant over reach just what are you supposed to do when paralyzed and active locked on top of a mid that has all the stats and debuffs it could want passers are out ashe/kiera walls everything serestia punishes you heavily and funny enough pinol still is behaving exactly the same as i see him very often this reminds me of that 5% nerf we saw to shaman and nabi some time back which literally did nothing.
                          You left out the part where Krishna has an infinite loop with her active automatically resetting upon penetration, making her AB full 100% of the time when you painstakingly get the ball back to the front. This not only giving her another free penetration before your people can even react, but it lets her use the debuff active over and over as soon as she breaks through your lines each time. Definitely some of the most overpowered nonsense I've seen since I started playing this game.


                          • #14
                            Just when you think it cannot get any worse it does the new ardor/dark front is even more ridiculous as you don't even get a chance to move and this front line consists of kevin meta balth cypher with the midline consisting of an ic/tb ashe whom neither ariel or cashlove can stop then you just get infinite looped as cypher reduces your backline to negative 40-80 dr and get picked apart. Backline ariel or nikita prove ineffective as counter options as they don't hold up very long as well. As far as krishna goes you can atleast stop with a strong attacker in the same vertical line but definately can loop very easily.I actually wanted to keep off color out of this but another powerful enabler of cypher fronts is dalgi she has a very strong synergy and lets him stack very fast and shoot faster leaving very little room to breathe. At this point this isn't just a meta change this is flat out high powercreep with low counter response.
                            Last edited by vidman; 10-23-2018, 05:54 AM.


                            • #15
                              The only thing that's gonna happen is the light gk is gonna get released cypher gets made worthless like miri and the game will then be "don't have the light gk legend? Guess you're bad now"
                              Last edited by Densuo; 10-26-2018, 06:08 PM.