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  • Jin buff ?

    Can we give jin the buff her deserves ?
    kiki is an old unit(not saying she needs a buff or being touched at all) most times is a waste of a slot compare to others so jin doesnt even active his chain that much , even in mono WW its hard to fit her in if you got most legends .

    but the main point is his kit , its old school basic semi nerfed kit .
    semi nerfed pointed at no heal .

    Strikers are getting stronger by every patch if its by stones or new units .

    most gks are riding a gimmick .

    For example :
    Presty - high DR , remove debuffs , Cdmg resist , paralyze , and active heals , increase spirit stone effect .
    Kirna - Shield , HP/CR active , high CR debuff , heals on active passes .
    Glayde - Increase skills effect , heal with pass in position , Pen resist .
    Isillia - maximum of about 30% heal with active on , high DR .
    Taehoon - Reocvers self AB when teammate attacked , heals with active , reduce pen .

    and then you got jin .
    which his only saving grace is his active .

    1 - dec 30% reflex and CR ? other units got it making it impossible to stack with them , and is a debuff which kinda reduce his value since this with his HP buff can be used as totem for other GKs .
    2 - increase 30% HP ? thats it ? 1 stat ?
    3 - his last skill which lmao is the only passive lmao which is good .

    jin outside active is pretty much horrible atm , his HP pool is pretty high but just doesnt compliment his avg DR and lack of heal , and tbf pen% strikers mowe him down and its not even that hard anymore to get 100% pen or close to it even vs duran .

    Now i saw BB added tickets for stone reroll change but does a legendary GK really needs stone reroll to shine ? ik for sure presty doesnt need , and even so , no one gurantees u will get thunder or light stone slot , and i highly doubt we will get alot of those tickets for free at events , maybe 1 at best every 6+ months .

  • #2
    The only input i can offer at this time is as follows.
    Presty - mono dark one shot potential/rainbow mildly annoying double assists handle her.
    Kirna - mono thunder easily able to be one shot/rainbow not really any stronger then mono kirna.Also no ee
    Glayde - mono thunder one to two shots to take down/rainbow potential ultimate cancer depending on how much many buffs.
    Isillia - can be slightly annoying to handle but still relatively easy to take down.
    Taehoon - one shot material lack of an ee and has to react before getting shot
    Jin- Shorter cooldown useful debuff relatively high hp and healthy dr quality depends on backline used with him same can be said for all the above gks
    You know what wrecks almost all of the gks handily? Miri and legend stones. Is it really so much jin needs a buff or certain things are going crazy?


    • 420Seeker
      420Seeker commented
      Editing a comment
      His cool down means nothing vs Jibril, his dr is pretty mediocre when Di is involved. I have more problems with Isillia than I do with Jin HYPERLUL

  • #3
    So i ask you 420seeker is that a jin problem or is that something else thats being a problem because jibril allowing double active shots is a problem for everyone not just jin.


    • 420Seeker
      420Seeker commented
      Editing a comment
      Disregarding Jibril's double active, he also wastes his active for the first shot of utility strikers and Lucid's first shot when she uses her active: both of which are their weaker shots. After wasting his active, he's highly vulnerable and easy to take down

  • #4
    Lets be honest , no one , almost no one uses mono anymore . Its just about rainbow .

    im atm at 2250 and lmao i think i only saw like 2 mono teams from the moment i enterd champ .

    so if you are going to see those GKs , high chances are you will not see them in mono .

    as Seeker said once DI is involved , and its always involved , jin non block DR is just crap , you dont need pen except for active , other then that DI easly breaks him .

    his debuff hands down is not usefull because it alr exist on a player like chundo , which offers more then jin .

    Jin atm for a legendary GK is lacking , and lmao he is not the only one , many GKs need treatment for example : lucian/raklet/ronald


    • #5
      The HP increase passive is even lower than Shaman's, which is a 5 star cancer unit, lol


      • Densuo
        Densuo commented
        Editing a comment
        That's her main gimmick though. What's your point.

    • #6
      The only reason we still see Jin in use today is because people fully invested in him back in 2015 and they simply don't have any of the top 5 GKs invested yet. Jin is the stopgap legend who sees a lot of use out of necessity, not because he is good. He isn't even the best WW GK for mono teams (Irre and BT both outperform him on mono). Players are holding off investing in a new GK until the upcoming Presty price drop (she is about to become a 900DS player) or they are waiting for glayde to become a classic star.

      The moment Presty drops to 900DS or Glayde becomes scoutable we will see Jin vanish from anything past diamond league. Jin is in the same boat as Lucian in that he is a player from an obsolete era of soccer spirits history and he has aged like milk.


      • AlanW0lf
        AlanW0lf commented
        Editing a comment
        Who are the top 5 GKs right now?

      • Tamamo
        Tamamo commented
        Editing a comment
        Glayde, Presty, Kirna, Isillia, and 5th is a tossup between who can form the most reliable crit resist build, and GKs who can benefit most from Jiho ace. There are some amazing Irre out there who do things Jin can only dream of. BT and Angela still remain a step above Jin but they too are pretty vulnerable in the current metagame.

        Everything that once made Jin good has been surpassed by other 5* players. He gets one good active block per match if he has the spirit for it and then he dies the next time the enemy assist or striker touches the ball.

    • #7
      Losing Duran's pen and crit resistance in the upcoming patch is now the final nail in the coffin for Jin.

      Unlike other colors, mono WW actually has no other defensive players with special defensive skills besides just the basic HP and crit resist stacking (and duran was a common source of that crit resist which is now gone). Even with pre-nerf Duran Jin could never stack enough crit resist to matter even with his active block. WW has now lost it's only source of pen resist.

      All colors have the basic HP and crit resist totems. it's the other defensive skills that tip the balance (most important of all is pen resistance):
      -Thunder has Altair who offers both pen resistance and crit resistance.Glayde has built in pen resistance as well and Kirna is a parasite that robs enemy attack power
      -Light has shaman who gives massive hp plus DR stacking, plus Jibril who can protect the GK from the frontline with insane amounts of DR and crit damage resist.
      -Dark has powerful crit rate debuffs plus pinol who grants the GK immunity to active pass/active shot combos. Patricia gives DR totem. Presty herself has crit damage resistance.
      -Ardor has DR totem from Kevin and pen resistance from Erica plus pass debuff from DQ. Angela lost her pen resistance but knowing bigball they will give it back right away because so many people complained, just like how they rolled back the lucian nerfs.

      WW's "much feared" magnus is just a hp totem. Kiki and miri and also just HP totems. Ailios is just a 25% crit resit totem. Saramir can't be used with Jin because she shares his skill. Silk is just pure crit resist totem and needs time to stack and is useless against OHKO teams. Khirel has reverted back to 2016 version and can no longer debuff strikers. With Duran gutted there is nothing left to keep Jin alive, and he was already struggling before the nerf.
      Last edited by Tamamo; 09-08-2017, 07:16 AM.


      • Densuo
        Densuo commented
        Editing a comment
        yes. magnus is just an hp totem. tell that to ardor and thunder. stop that.

    • #8
      Hello, thank you for this discussion on Jin. We will convey what was covered here and pass the feedback along to the developers.


      • #9
        Duran: Still has crit dmg reduction.
        Aiolos: Her active is being buffed, and that too provides crit dmg reduction. Also has her crit resist passive and healing every 4 min.
        Silk: Single biggest crit resist provider in the game.
        Grandeur: Special player with no EE yet but still sees plenty of use by anyone wanting crit resist thanks to her 20% and ace. Also provides 20% dr on active.

        Don't play up Dark's crit resist yet downplay WW's. WW's may not be quite as good with all sources considered but it's not worse off by much. Silk single-handedly beats any one of Dark's sources. WW also has better speed and reflexes in the back. They may not directly reduce dmg but the potential of those stats to protect the back should not be dismissed. And Pinol is by no means immunity against active passes/shots. Any team that has some proper amount of spirit support will only be reduced/delayed, not outright denied, active passes and shots.

        WW is known for having the best backline of any mono. Duran is finally getting a well deserved and long overdue nerf, as is Khirel. But WW's back will still be fine without. And the Magnus problem is about how he gives his totem to rainbow rather than what it is he gives. His totem is good no doubt, but because he's rainbow his anti Ardor/Thunder totem is also all over hurting those two attribute Strikers more so than the other three.

        I think Jin is fine. Not popular, but fine. If anything hurts his popularity it's because he's an old man. He has to compete against BT and Irre for WW GK choice. Right now in a meta that is very unfavorable to active block GKs Jin happens to be the sole one able to still do well. He's not completely vulnerable without his active block yet he also happens to have a shorter cooldown on his block that is stronger than any other block.

        And the only reason Jin stills sees use is most certainly not because people years ago invested in him. 2015? If someone hasn't been able to replace a player in two years since it's because they chose not to or haven't been playing since, not because they haven't been able to.
        Last edited by Viticide; 09-09-2017, 10:44 AM.


        • Tamamo
          Tamamo commented
          Editing a comment
          People keep spamming this "WW has best backline in mono" like it is perpetually 2014. You are a monodark player rocking Pinol cancer with presty, and you have the nerve to call WW's old and busted backline over powered? How could you even type all of that with a straight face?

          "whoa watch out that team has Kiki in the back! That is a game changer! She has an unbelievable 87 action speed with all those speed totems so only IC Luka can save us!"

        • Viticide
          Viticide commented
          Editing a comment
          I don't recall ever saying over powered. I said known for best. Those are not the same. And WW still has a solid backline even with these nerfs. I don't get how you can say WW has a lacking back with a straight face. You want a bad backline? Look to Ardor or Thunder. Thunder got some relatively recent additions in Altair and Vanity that should help fix things up, but Ardor's backline is still a little lacking in a mono setting.

          And 2014? You mean when WW was lacking players period? Never mind EEs (though everyone rather was back then). That's well before WW became known for its backline. But sure, go ahead and overestimate Pinol + Presty. I only run the combo cause I run a crit resist team. Pinol does squat to reduce dmg, the thing you seem to be complaining WW lacks the means to do despite despite naming little better in any other mono. The only backlines stacking high DR is rainbow.

          Go ahead and put words into my mouth if you so wish to do so. I said nothing about broken nor about Kiki. Go ahead and ignore the other points I made. Ignore the points on Duran, Aiolos, Silk, Grandeur, and Magnus. But if that's how you believe you can prove anything, you're only fooling yourself. And Pinol cancer? I have to laugh at that. Very solid player yes, but cancer most certainly not. He has his own fair share of flaws. There are plenty worse things than Pinol, or Pinol/Presty, running around.

      • #10

        The thing with Jin especially though is he is engaging as a legendary character since in a sea of Edgelords and Ash Ketchums (think how the first theme begins,) he stands out distinctly personality wise and his lore can easily give rise to skills in his kit. Between the pieces of story in his profile and his appearances in the story its blatantly obvious Jin is an unabashed pervert who loves the ladies and that the ladies "love" Jin back. This love/hate relationship (he loves them, they hate him) with women can be translated into some pretty interesting and unique skills for him. The first one I thought up is "everyn̶o̶body loves Jin II" which would replace "Overwhelming II" - ALL female units in the position lose 5% DR, HP, AS, AP, Pen, Pen Resist, Crit Rate/Resist, CD, CDR, Def, Pass, RPE, (I.E.5% all stats down) while over the top the inspiration is informed by his character. His antics tend to alienate every female character in his immediate vicinity and such would equate to decreased performance but note this is "ALL female units in the position" because aside from the enemy front Jin's friendly Aiolos, Silk, etc are also "overjoyed" to be around him.

        Another idea is that GK is the best possible place in Jin's mind because he can sit back and enjoy the view such that another idea for a skill could be to replace "Serenity" with "Ladies man?" - When in GK position Jin gains 2% DR, Crit Resist, Def, CDR and Pen Resist for ALL female units on the field. Evidently 22 units on the field, up to 21 can be female and I would personally estimate this skill would find ~14-15 targets in usual PvP rounds so about +30% to defensive stats across the board and, compare to Serenity - 30%DR,Crit Res, 40%Def assuredly better and this would definitely need testing but I'd go out on a limb here and say it wouldn't cause Presty to flinch from her top spot though it would be funny to face into this team and question if tagging Dook and Gaphyl for Ivy and Chitose might be worth it to weaken the beast.

        The last idea I had for a change would be a lot less lore informed than the other 2 and more on the basis of in any such min/max CCG like Hearthstone, MTG, Summoner's war, etc. it isn't enough to simply be above average but you need to be at least a little OP to be viable (isn't that right Presty? *gets stunned*...) But yeah in terms of unique mechanics there was one that was just sort of retired that could feed into Jin's kit and give him something to stand out. I suggest a change to "Cry of Wilderness" the 30% hp totem to "TEAM SPIRIT!" - Allied units in the position gain 30% HP and 15% Co-op Defense. Now I acknowledge Co-op was an intensely frustrating mechanic in PvE where AIs very quickly hit the passive 40%? cap and made CoD and such a nightmare, then in PvP some GKs became ridiculous because their kits were overly synergistic with it: Angela spreads damage out further and heals more, Lucian likes the help because he revives everyone anyways. Jin alone having a low chance to pull in additional defenders could be interesting and considering the intensely unreliable nature of Co-op it isn't really built and while Felix having it is already a thing he puts his own neck into danger and Jin would be volunteering up his allies.

        I'm just tossing ideas out there though and any numbers and the stats themselves here could be subject to change since let's face it these are just thought experiments with no actual data and 5% to literally ALL stats is kind of excessive but I like the base of the ideas though (a debuff that hits all units in a position, interaction with unit gender and a buff that takes into account up to all units on the field) because they tie Jin's personality and lore into his kit in a unique way that he can be balanced upon.

        I'd like to see any of these ideas as starting points for what can be done to Jin since the obvious way to fix him have him heal 30% hp when attacked is both boring, samey and maintains his status as an above average, all-rounder stat stick and even with a buff if it isn't just overtuning his stats until he become's as popular as Presty which no one wants there isn't really anywhere to go with what he has now.

        TL;DR Jin doesn't need a buff he needs an identity


        • Gatchwar
          Gatchwar commented
          Editing a comment
          I completely sympathize with you on the idea of having to deal with Co-op again in PvE (higher floor CoD and CoI gives me PTSD as well) but I feel it wouldn't be so bad returning in a limited way. The idea itself was pretty interesting giving you a tangible use for the Def stat and creating clutch moments of RNG but a passive no skills/stones 40%? cap I believe on units with a moderate amount of defense was more than a little obnoxious on high floor PvE where obviously the overstatted AI easily hits it. Here it returns to a single GK who offers much less of it to his defenders I'd say 15% who evidently appears very rarely in either CoD and CoI, I can only get to floor 43 in CoD so I don't know how often Jin occurs after that I think its only once until then and that one has a skill set different than live Jin and 1/20 odds the CoI opponent is Jin but I feel is on the easier side of matches anyways. Thus it wouldn't be nearly as bad as it was and far from as often due to Jin's rarity. But more than anything I'd rather the Devs took a chance with Jin and do something crazy either something I've suggested or something else which they then reel in if its overtuned ("but he's a legend and can't be recalled" you may say, which is a pretty big deal, can't deny that.) But still, Jin hasn't really lived up to his legendary status and hasn't long before Presty existed, being overshadowed by equally workable 5* units like Angela, Lucian before her and heck Kei all the way back when when Zib, Kei and Jin were the holy trinity of GKs (lol considering the current state of all 3) he was never much worse than them but there was never any desire to pick him up over other more noteworthy legends either with their distinct skill sets that let them fulfill a role markedly better than their 5* counterparts E.G. Meta's existence, Will/Balth's raw numbers, etc. which is what a Legendary unit is and Jin never felt like.

        • Tsuki
          Tsuki commented
          Editing a comment
          Jin always had an identity . he was always the balanced one who had everything and exceled at nothin .

          Your idea is nice , funny to see lmao , but that can sound like a troll attempt . that skil basically makes u 1 passive less vs male strikers , which lmao Damien ATM is the most dangerous of them and grows in number .

          Yet agian another risky and maybe useless passive that will agian NERF him , and he isnt even in a good spot to begin with .

          As for the third , i like it , but can be easly abused . a Line with Linmay silk Aiolos and idk whatever else can easly abuse it , you put silk vs striker , she and aiolos will almost gurantee you never get 1v1 and stick linmay a Motb and Light HP .
          unlimited non crits and coop works , u can basicaly 50% of the time coop 3 man and heal tons thanks to linmay and reroll .

          Jin is just too basic ATM to survive , low DR , mediocre CR , great HP and Def , 0 niche , no heal .

          Jin alr got his identity , but that identity ****s him up thanks to BB inventing Pen res and cdmg res then overbuffing units to deal with it tohse new stats and leaving jin old school kit behind .

        • kazu19
          kazu19 commented
          Editing a comment
          maybe he could buff the coop stones efficiency by 50%-75% in the line then? would solve the pve problem and will give buff. like if there's kiki in line and normally - without jin - has like 20% coop cuz of stone but with jin it would be 30% +?

      • #11
        Jin former main here

        Been switching formations around lately lmao Jin is doing worse then BT atm .
        Jin is pretty much a one shot block GK and untill the next active you dont wanna get shot at all .

        He can be a wall if built right , but lmao other GKs just do it why better .

        His affection chain is to lets be super honest now USELESS players , 2 are 4* out of question .
        Fanrir is **** , can play as good CM but doesnt justify the use , and kiki is ehhhhh ok?ish ?she isnt great but she isnt bad , she is just a waste of a slot as she stands now .

        jin base DR is lmao hands down CRAP , you can build DR but its still lacking in comprasion to what BT can achive and he is just beter at being her totem .

        if Def was as good as DR he would be champ , i can easly get about 1.8k def with ST , but lmao def got its limits to how much itll save you .

        everyone knows his HP is great , as for his CR its great but hard tobuild for CR when you will then lack DR .

        overall jin is a bit underwhelming , he is too balanced in his skill , as it stands now , he is good at most of it but master of none ,he got no niche to himself as said , he is just old school grandpa trying his best to shine .

        does he need a buff ? YES . Jin should have gotten his own heal passive LONG AGO , in about the same patch BB realized spirit recovery active was a joke for legendary GK .

        All legends have an ALL unique skill set , dont see why jin has overwhelming at this point of time .

        make it debuff 30% Crit rate and heal self/line for X amount when attacked .

        another thing to do is change his 45% Def , Drop it back to 30% and make it a quad totem with 30% CR , Def , 40% DR , and 15/20% Pen res/Cdmg res .

        His DR will be easier to build this way with the same CR , and less defense he never needed that much as it build up so much its pretty useless , and make his kit a bit more updated to today . Its overall a buff but with the amount of dmg strikers are able to dish things can still go bad for him .

        just my idea , but if you ask me lmao BT atm is at a much better spot then jin .


        • #12
          In all fairness I was half-joking about my skill ideas but I also point out I'm just tossing ideas out there since I really don't know where to stuff numbers into Jin's kit to make him both viable and not break him beyond belief. I strongly disagree that Jin's being jack of all trades master of none can be considered a unique identity at all though simply because Zombroi and Noot Noot arguably fall into the same category having a bit of everything, ("but wait Zombroi has a unique quirk! he has a lifesteal totem!" you may say to which I respond "nvm they are different from Jin, they're terrible" why does Zib even still have that at all?)

          On the topic of totems that's theoretically Jin's identity more than anything else being the only GK with 2 of them, 1 more than the next closest and in the era where 25% triple totems are commonplace why does Cry give only 30% hp? While ramping this to something stupid like a 100% hp totem could work the important thing to discuss is why does he have more than 1 totem? GKs are by nature selfish since their entire job is to not die as their death signals a loss, so why be the team player? soak your allies buffs, their deaths don't lose you the game. By nature totems must be weaker than straight stat buffs because you're spreading it around and is a probably a solid indicator when none of the 3 most popular GKs currently have any; Glayde amps totems on herself which is correct; selfishness is good -> Presty has the right idea -> Angela's allies pain heals her (kinky). If something happens to Jin I'm pretty sure there is a choice here, either double down and make him the totem keeper which is pretty absurd since GK is one of the 2 roles allowed to be as selfish as they want (though a skill that charges AB in the line when he's shot seems interesting) or reel back the totems (merge the 2 and weaken slightly?) and let him be more selfish which is an important first step to bringing him to relevance without making him unfair.

          The other thing is he can't remain essentially vanilla having no unique gimmick of his own because that CANNOT BE VIABLE AND NOT BROKEN AT THE SAME TIME. An analogy would be in other min/max CCGs like hearthstone where an above averagely statted vanilla minion Chillwind Yeti a 4 mana 4 attack / 5 HP unit saw moderate play as the game launched because in such a limited card pool a solid stat line was enough to make it playable but as the first expansion hit it disappeared altogether from constructed play because lower statted minions with better effects that synergise in specific strategies flourished rather than a solidly statted unit with no synergy. Vanillas then dropped off the face of the planet as you'd expect except when terrifyingly overstatted vanillas were printed (4 mana 7/7 flashbacks). Or no longer CCGs but League of Legends where similar min/max systems exist where the meta shifts with the biweekly patch and champions come into and fall out of favour often. Sometimes squishier ranged attackers dominate other times certain mages do but the meta everyone dreads is a tank meta where binary balls of stats slowly walk up to you and as slowly bludgeon you to death in their invincible wrath because of the raw numbers and lack of counterplay. Contrast to when assassins or mages are strong and rito didn't screw up the balance too terribly, the metas are more fun relatively because both types have massive discrepancies between skill floor and ceiling meaning they're strong but you won't win unless you're legitimately good at them so if you lose you don't feel there was nothing you could do. Bringing this back to Jin if we keep suggesting straight stat increases to a vanilla kit it won't make him viable over Presty and co. until he's such a terrifying ball of stats there's a justified outcry of Jin being OP and they reel him back to obscurity.

          All the top GKs have their gimmicks with variable value and counterplay even if its a lot less hands on than in a league or hearthstone due to auto. Glayde heals 25% when anyone passes in the position, in theory this can bring her from 1 hp to full every time she gets shot in a line of passers, in practice she's guaranteed her own pass but then its a toss up how many times her allies can pass the ball around before someone pens, forward passes or it gets taken so the value varies and can be diminished with slows or a 4 man front with steals. Presty is a mash up of unique skills but the big one is her stun which buys her 3 entire minutes of not having to deal with the striker and her allies get free reign on a docile front line unless ofc this gets countered by active passing. Angela has her heals when her allies are attacked which combined with a kit centered around taking minimal damage means she could stay basically full health forever but she can't because dead allies become liabilities and pen nullifies her insane DR nicely. Jin has none of this, at best you catch him without his active block which works but isn't much counterplay at all (shoot hard and fast is universally a good strat) and the rest of his kit is straight stats, nothing to do but build whatever drills holes in his ok stats most efficiently. Now some gimmicks are just terrible flat out (why was "stack as much HP as possible a thing Raklet?") others don't work out as intended (Kei's shtick is awesome but you know 100% Pen means he literally has no kit, would swapping forestall to lowering pen be a thing? Duran's a lot less helpful now) but Jin's going to need one to be viable without being unfair.

          I tossed out some ideas but I think they were way too rough to be useful, too many types of stats and because of that they all had to be low but still an identity is an important place to start. Off the top of my head ideas like gaining defensive stats up to a cap everytime an ally (in the position?) acts is totally not a rip of Askeladd's thing, gimping the enemy front line when shot, not a rip because lots of units have it though totally not one named Presty, Something that shortens his active CD for when enemy uses actives in the position, reviving dead mechanics like Irre's RNG or Co-op Def both were really frustrating but could be interesting etc. But it needs to be coherent with itself, a starting point could be the Jin meme of Def, he's probably always had the most of it due to Legend stats and skills thinking he needed more of it o.O but yeah merge totems and add new skill "totally not ripping off Vonchi" - for every 50 def Jin gains 1.5% CDR and Pen Resist also all healing done to Jin is doubled (its funny because I still don't suggest giving him a heal.) That's 30% of each at 1000 def tune up or down as needed. Just an idea you can have the metric tonne of Def do whatever, heck you can even have him leech HP from the enemy front line there's too many unique ideas out there that could work.

          Look at the end of the day I'm not going to say no to a Jin buff whatever form it takes if it even happens but so much more than him getting a few % here and there I want him to deserve his title as Legendary GK. If he never becomes as good as Presty or Kirna so be it let them be new and shiny but as he stands he's an above average keeper yet utterly unremarkable compared to the better half of 5* keepers due to his lack of gimmick and strange fascination with totems and whose rarity leaves him with nowhere to go but up
          Last edited by Gatchwar; 09-12-2017, 12:39 AM.


          • #13
            u put numbers in serenity , as said Def is kinda half assed useless on him , he can get so much of it that it wont even matter , which is where you can push in other stats .
            Zibroi never fell in that category . Zibroi has his weakness of no CR which jin doesnt , and who is noot noot lmao .
            but ya life steal was a sort of niche back then . shame it was nerfed so badly its not even worthy called niche .

            You can drop his Def and DR % by 10-20(for def) from serenity , put in Pen res/Cdmg res on serenity and give his wild passive a buff of 10% more HP and 20% DR to line .
            Jin was always known as a GK who buffed his line , thats why he has his identity of an all rounder . As for why he got 2 buffs to line that doesnt matter , what matters is why he got 1 skill which is not unique while other legends all have 4/4 unique kits .
            There is nothin wrong with Jin buffing his line and its no indication to why Glayde or presty are better . Theyre better because their kits are more updated to the meta . Both pack a sort of boost either from passive or skills , both posses DR and CR , both posses different protection (Cdmg res or Pen res) and both got heal and niche use . Jin got nothin that suits the current meta except his active .

            I never played thos games so idk , but thing is i did suggest to drop his vanilla above . Give him more DR he needs , give him the heal he should have gotten long ago , and the Cdmg res/Pen res to deal with the meta .

            Jin does have a gimmic , its his active being superior and more u can say 'spamable' . but this gimmic belongs to an older meta which is why its failing .
            Glayde heals 25% of HP dealt to her , its by no means as good as heals from things like gaphyl or meta which are %HP .
            His gimmic is just crap no other way to say it and its sad , BB giving every second legend a way to recover AB for faster shots and reviving strikers and other stuff like Raw dmg strikers AKA damien with stupid ass stones like wind caller , they slowly killed him becuase his concept just couldnt hold it anymore , his only saving grace was his high HP and DR which could save him from 1 shot but it just isnt enough for the next .

            Overall id say keep jin concept as an all rounder GK , Immune to OHKO , deals well with following shots , buffing his allies .
            a kit like

            His active - same
            Overwhelming 2 changed to King Domain (his name king jin just make it sound cool lel :P) - Reduce enemy crit rate by 30% and heal line by 20% when attacked (Obv 10% pvp or can make it 15% and 7.5% on pvp) Applied only on GK to prevent abusing .

            Cry of wilderness - Increase HP by 40% , DR by 15% , and Reflex by 10% to offset his overwhelming 2 loss and still buff his allies as his original concept was .
            The reflex part can be droped , overall not as that importent .

            Serenity - 30% DR , 20% Def , 30% CR , 15/20% Cdmg/Pen resist .

            He will surely be harder to deal with , but still not as annoying as Presty or kirna thanks to his niche being more under control which is his active .

            Also i would suggest reducing active blocks to 0.5 spirit , not only to buff jin but to buff other block GKs , this had to happend the day they nerfed starting spirit .


            • kazu19
              kazu19 commented
              Editing a comment
              nerfing to 0,5 bar would screw pve hard

            • Gatchwar
              Gatchwar commented
              Editing a comment
              I literally made up Noot Noot on the spot but yeah A.K.A. DU007 Nute, the boss GK who you'd expect to be terrible (but not pass effect in kit terrible, that's a special kind of useless). Also no, that's not the point I was making with Zib, it wasn't about him being the same kind of stat stick as Jin... (question mark?) but that they are both jacks of all trades masters of none and that such a unit can never be competitive without being unbearably oppressive. Also Zib has and has always had a solid 60% CR just uh in such a way that he basically didn't ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but if were direct comparing stats then yes Zib suffers because he has useless CR and low stats across the board and Jin has solid stats but lacks Zib's CDR and a heal. Then Noot has a little of everything barring a heal and CDR but also has pass effect (REEE.) The stats don't matter its the idea that they are all units with some of most defensive stats and no unique quirk or aspect they excel in. Giving Jin a heal and CDR makes him literally better Zombroi minus lifesteal totem (which may as well not exist) and its never healthy for a vanilla unit to be better than another all around; that just creates something usable in literally every scenario and with no meaningful counterplay.

              A totem king Jin as you suggest, were it competitive would utterly stamp out competition because it has no flaw, its just a juggernaut of numbers stepping on you and you can't do anything about it. The thing with competitive GK gimmicks is they require you to build around them selecting the correct players and totems to cover up their weaknesses as best as possible. Glayde (no clue where heals back 25% came from that's Alexa's thing) healing 25% max HP whenever someone in the position passes including herself is insane but has its drawbacks, if her skill were literally to say when you get shot heal back 25% HP, 20% spirit AFTER getting shot it'd be a joke and Glayde would be far from the most popular GK atm but that's literally what it is if your backline consists of a Nerua, Altair, Hilde or the like who are all not programmed to pass when facechecking an enemy is also an option. But the power drastically increases with Askeladd in the line who in all fairness always has a spot in a Thunder backline and Nikita who's kinda suboptimal otherwise but then with a Glayde relying on her ballholding and passes gives her reason to be. Presty has her stun, huge CDR, a cleanse and way too much more but has a tiny health pool no matter what compared to Glayde, Jin, Issilia or the like and requires reliable defenders to guard her against active passes and is famous for getting 2 shot because of this. Angela is really tanky but suffers from similarly low HP and is terribly underwhelming when you can solo her so survivable totems are a must. A totem king lacks nothing and has no counter, its just stats, no potential for additional value and no way to deny it either. A huge HP wall protected by a heal, huge DR, CR, CDR, Pen Res, Def and then also donates such power to his defenders needs no gimmick and will just smirk at his opponents trying to figure out a strat to exploit the totem king's weaknesses (LMAO). This is by definition anti-fun and such numbers cannot be allowed to exist so it'll always just be underwhelming. Not to say a wall of numbers can't work at all though, Kei has an amazing idea that just doesn't work because Pen, he builds up a crazy amount of DR, CR as he and his allies are attacked and gets even tankier at low HP which combined with a block makes him increasingly harder to kill as he takes more and more punishment. How is this different than totem king Jin? This requires set up, failing to gather the spirit to block the first shot gets Kei one-shot and having no heal means he relies on his allies to keep him going in longer matches and to build stacks.

              I respect you tossing out ideas for what can be done to Jin, he's in sore need of something to spice up his mundane kit because as it stand's it can't take too many more raw numbers without breaking the game. Without the core of what makes a healthy yet competitive GK he isn't going anywhere. He needs a core identity/gimmick to build around, then a kit synergistic with it to highlight an area of particular strength while retaining MEANINGFUL COUNTERPLAY which can be exploited to undermine his strengths IF AND ONLY IF you attempt to do so and area's for allies to buff or otherwise pick up slack. Being the all rounder just doesn't work because there can never be counter play unless being underwhelming is considered valid counterplay. Depriving him of a heal still serves as solid counterplay since exactly 3 GKs lack any form of healing (Kei and Rak aren't doing so hot either tho) and it gives him leeway to be stronger in another way.

              I was tired last night by the time I tried to think of more ways to make Jin scary in a way healthy for the game but there's any number of ways to do it and I'm just chucking fundamental ideas out there and you and others should as well. Anyways one thing I thought up today is the 1 thing of Jin's that just is really scary and can be used in interesting ways is his block. Its simply the best block skill in the game, half the regular CD and gives CR which is unique to him, I dunno if this is a skill or is just tied to the block but the block CD goes up to 12 maybe 15 mins, the CR to 40% (if changes legit RIP Durian) and then every time a member of the allied team uses an active skill the CD is reduced by 3 minutes. Now this can get kooky since 4 other units using active skills resets it but the considerations are that a lot of units rarely use their active (attackers, healers near full HP, leader actives are expensive, etc.) but the big one is since the cost is the same does Jin have the spirit to even use his block as it comes back? WW as far as I can think of doesn't usually run units with high spirit gen (Miho fell off the face of the planet a while ago) barring WW active passes which refund themselves but spirit charge stones aren't usually preferred to alternatives SC > PS, Ardor CD > WW CD etc. every time and gives both an avenue to support Jin, (Aslan spam new meta) and meaningful counterplay, drain spirit through Seres, Pinol, Chitose, Bora heck even Miho. My other idea atm would be if we gave Jin his wall of stats but made him build it up say by requiring him to use his active skill, each time giving him a third of the stats so he ramps up like Kei instead of simply having a wall of stats as a totem so it would encourage you to try to kill Jin quickly after his first block while controlling the enemy spirit ps AIolos would be terrifying against this.

              Keep tossing new ideas out there the proposed changes have yet to drop
              Last edited by Gatchwar; 09-12-2017, 07:26 PM.

          • #14
            Jin only needs one buff in my opinion: I would move Fenrir to a SUB CHAIN for affection. I feel having a SUPERB BOSS on an Affection chain is a bad thing.


            • Gatchwar
              Gatchwar commented
              Editing a comment
              I can see why that would be a good idea and I'd be all for it since I don't have Fenrir either and he's part of a ton of chains but Kiki (who I'm assuming is who you're hinting should handle that chain) herself isn't in a great spot atm. Way back when when just having double totem meant auto include she was a must have in WW and pretty solid in rainbow but with power creep and all making units like Gaphyl and Hyung Ran and the legends more competitive back line options Kiki isn't great with her massive pass effect totems which aren't worth much in a back line (WW has no viable backline assist) and hard to make use of regardless (Kiki front totem hasn't been a thing even longer) so she's left with 35% HP and 20% AS which are Ok but don't begin to compare to the totems and especially utility of Gaphyl, Hyung Ran, Freyja, Alice, Altair, Silk, Chitose, Magnus etc. who all have much more going on. Now it definitely isn't necessary for Jin to have hyper meta units in his chains it generally seems pretty random who appears where and the fact that that chain has 4*s in it speaks volumes but you'd be saying that Jin gets buffed by being able to not have Fenrir in the collection and having Kiki be an additional +20% HP in that instance. That's solid free stats but I'd argue it isn't worth a slot to use Kiki anymore, Hyung Ran gives 5% less HP in that instance but has her stacking DR and CR totem + spirit charge and CDR active much more usable than Kiki's 20% AS, 55% PE, Ok stealing ability and being WW. Even if monoWW I can't seem to find a reason to tag any of Aiolos, Durian, Magnus, Khirel, or even Silk if she starts switching out Durian to run Kiki anymore.
              TL;DR it isn't much of a buff if what's sacrificed is more than what you can gain here.
              But considering how boring Jin's kit is and unremarkable he is as a Legend this wave of changes is a great time to change up his kit and make him more interesting with some larger changes to make him stand up as a Legendary GK in some unique way that isn't just a ball of stats, not necessarily new Presty but something since Jin would need some intensely strong buffs to make him approach Presty.

            • Tsuki
              Tsuki commented
              Editing a comment
              With the introduction of chain helpers sooner or later fenrir will pop so it wont matter , and lmao fenrir wasnt even hard to begin with .

              Also buffing his chain wont help his lackluster kit in anyway . Sure more Hp , but almost nothin to back it up . Especially now when static Cr took a heavy hit with duran , making Bt even better for CR and Dr builds . Jin just pales in comprasion , only thing he good at is 3 man back and even that you wanna get shot once only , twice at most .

          • #15
            Gatchwar Kiki doesnt have to be OP. Jin doesn't need to have the latest and the greatest.

            Thunder is somewhat forced to use Guinevere ace for penetration if they dont have Leventor. Meanwhile Light, Ardor, and Whirlwind all have assists with Penetration buffs, and Armel whom has it for dark isn't a walking liability like Guinevere is. It's a sacrifice we need to make.

            You can move Kiki to the front or mid and still have her affection chain for Jin kick in and have her benefit the team in a different fashion.
            Last edited by Densuo; 09-14-2017, 12:45 PM.


            • Tsuki
              Tsuki commented
              Editing a comment
              She doesnt need to be OP , be is just not optimal at all . Miho easly takes her spot if it wasnt for that chain , and miho usnt even all that good .

              Lmao deal with what you have , ive seen strong guins , maybe not the best totem , but still a totem with valuable stats .

              Kiki ? In mid or front ? Now that is what you call a sacrifice/liability . Totally useless , even fpr kirin she is useless and you wan a defender .

              Kiki doesnt need much buffs , just not 35% pass effect , leave that buffing to good old yuri .

            • Gatchwar
              Gatchwar commented
              Editing a comment
              Ok in all fairness literally any point I try to make gets lost in a wall of text but the big things here are:
              I don't need Kiki to be OP, its perfectly fine for some units to not be meta relevant considering the constant stream of new units and changes, some units just get left behind by the wayside, Kiki being one of them, you can't keep such a long list of units simultaneously balanced that's just how these games work there's a literal term for this, "perfect imbalance" and that's just fine. The point here is mainly to counter your idea of a Jin buff being moving Fenrir to sub chain such that if you have Kiki but not Fenrir you get the 20% HP chain by running Kiki. Unit chains are not and have never be the reason to run unfavourable characters over their markedly more efficient counterparts, the moderate buff to one stat does not compensate a character who contributes drastically less to a team than an alternative. Chains are just a bonus if you get lucky and RNG puts a useful unit into one instead of 3*s and rivals which its apt to do owing to its rather random nature. So it wouldn't be much of a buff at all, just like putting Iggy in literally any meta thunder player chains atm is not a buff, there's not enough incentive to slot in sub-optimal units for chain buffs if you wouldn't do so anyways.

              I agree it bites that Guin has kinda fallen out of relevance in no small part to her kit being bizarre right from the get go (seems more like an mid/back attacker than a front leader by a lot) and takes one of Thunder's 2 pen aces with her but at the same time I'm curious about the bit about being forced to run Guin. Leventor is the preferred thunder striker in general, if you want mono you'd look to get him since all of their Legends are solid, having him hold the buff instead of roping people into 1 of their assists specifically seems pretty good and then I ask who else needed it? Griffith is the only other Thunder striker I see at all and she has the record setting Crack II for 50% pen which makes that ace overkill. Blade and Vann all don't see play because let's face it Presty stun, AB caps, striker reflect nerfs, Aiolos reset etc. have each hammered a nail into the coffin of utility strikers who were pretty solid for brief spurts. The burst pen ace itself is kinda suboptimal in general too since unless your striker is desperately hurting for Pen (William) you won't get much value out of it from most units who don't care about pen over a more generally applicable ace stat, AS, HP, Reflex being big ones and it hobbles a team's defense because they've opted for pure offense over these. Between Legend stones and Miri/ Jiho /Balth, Defense is kind of memey in general but definitely doable.

              Lastly, I don't need Jin to be the latest and greatest though I think that isn't what you meant but regardless, I just feel his kit is utterly lacking interaction in any regard. He has no unique quirk/specialty of his own (sharing that honour with Nute and arguably Zombroi since lifesteal totem may as well not be a skill on a GK) such as passing in position heals, getting shot stuns, blocking cripples the enemy line + way to charge AB, getting hit stacks defensive attributes + massive defensive buff at low HP (its funny because Kei isn't great atm), Huge HP + CR but no DR (Rak is just bad tho), or heck even has + attributes at high/low HP. Theoretically double totem skill counts for something but they could easily weaken and fold them together (Bell quad totem and 25% triple totems are a dime a dozen) and find him something cool to mess around with. I don't and have never wanted him buffed up to Presty levels of strong especially not in 1 go with his current kit that would break the game since a ball of stats becoming competitive just kills competition as it has no counterplay / variable value, just a wall of numbers sitting on you which I went in more depth above and all and yeah. What I want to see is something more interactive, something to build around to polish he edges, open some weaknesses to cover and facing into it have a way to set up to better your odds against it. The last concept I had above was my best take on this; Fold up the totems into a single skill, weaken as necessary, remove the Def but otherwise keep serenity? weaken as necessary? put this in serenity's place? dunno the new bit doesn't work if Jin gets OHKO too easily. Active up to 15 min CD from 10 then third skill "spirit of the stars"? - Reduce the CD of Active block by 3 mins every time an allied unit uses an active skill, every time active block is used gain 20% HP, CR, Def and 5% Pen Res (up to 3 times). Numbers 100% need work just some tentative values here but the idea is Jin is even more reliant on his block which was the best part of his kit anyways but now uses are further apart unless the team has solid spirit gen/ active usage going for it and will need to spare some for Jin. Every time he active blocks he stacks up passive stats (Vonchi's active stacks apply only to his active) which is a new concept for the game and is quite terrifying at full stacks but stacks drastically slower. Its strength comes from huge blobs of stats which are bad but this time is locked behind a stacking passive bound by active block which has interactivity now and is not just always on passive stats. There is a clear weakness, you're hard pressed to stop Jin blocking the first shot but there's a solid window following it to kill him as 1 stack of 3 stack passive is a weak state also you have a long time till next use unless his team spams actives to bring it up quickly which itself is countered by spirit shred units like the increasingly popular Serestia and Miri, annoying Pinol, Chitose etc. to slow down the stacking. Also note 20% hp GAIN not HEAL because it also keeps Jin in line to deprive him of a heal but doing this gives him a small heal when his HP increases and the current HP matches ratio but more importantly gives amplified reaction to % healing rather than straight healing itself. So yeah quirk, synergies to build around weaknesses and counters. That's just my idea though feel free to toss out your own but Jin could definitely see something pretty big happen to his kit there wasn't much interesting there atm anyways.